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That might be a viable path if not for push notifications and the fact that companies want an app more than anything. I've used cross platform frameworks in the

That might be a viable path if not for push notifications and the fact that companies want an app more than anything. I've used cross platform frameworks in the past and had the web version up and all I hear is "when app?", even though it's the same codebase, same look, sometimes without even leveraging anything like push notifications or other app-only features. They literally will not even look at the web version. I've proven this over 10+ different companies. I deliver the web version, then I get started on app store hell and only after the app (iOS is all they often care about, at least at the start) is out do they start giving feedback. It's frustrating since they normally have had access to the identical web version for weeks but they just don't care. I love the web, but users and companies just want apps, and I want to get paid.

cageface 4y ago
I've switched to working on other kinds of apps, more rich desktop kinds of apps. I enjoy this a lot more too since most mobile apps are pretty dumb and gimmicky. Of course if you're doing client work you have to build what your clients are asking for and yeah the web is not a substitute for native in all cases.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Or find different clients.
LeifCarrotson 4y ago
Why do companies want an app? Is it just for telemetry? Just for push notifications? Just because their competitor/idol has an app and they want one too?
- joshstrange 4y ago
  > Why do companies want an app? It's not for telemetry (at least at the scale/size of companies I deal with). As far as I can tell it's the prestige. I know this because our initial app had no push notifications and the clients who paid for it wouldn't stop asking about an app and didn't even touch the (identical) web version. Push notifications are part of it for sure but I just wanted to give an example of a case where there were no features that were app-only but all they cared about was the app. I'd say "Yeah, we have that new feature and you can see it at yourbrand.ourcompany.com" and they'd say "Ok, when will we have an app?", felt like I was taking crazy pills but I've seen this exact same conversation repeated at multiple companies, multiple clients. And lest someone thing this is a subdomain-related thing, it's not, I had the same questions when we setup the web version at theirdomain.com.
- uup 4y ago
  Because web-based apps don't have a good user experience. Even a web app embedded inside of native app feels bad. Maybe it's something about WebKit specifically that feels bad, but there is a very noticeable difference between a web app and a native app. Part of the issue is the thread model. Touch events come in on the app's main thread, and then those touch events get dispatched on to the JavaScript thread, and then the JavaScript thread needs to dispatch to yet another thread to render. It's just impossible to achieve native-level touch interactions in a web-based app. And then there is there is the polish level. Apple has spent god knows how long polishing each and every native interaction. All the animation curves are perfect. You lose all of that polish when you build a web app.
- radarsat1 4y ago
  Drives me nuts that even just websites, like Reddit, push so hard to get you to install their app. I think it is not primarily related to notifications and telemetry, although that's obviously part of it, or to access to your contacts or whatever, like in the case of FB. My theory is that it's much simpler and dumber than that: that "number of app installs" has simply become a metric that managers can use to promote themselves inside a company, and that companies can ultimately use to sell shares. It's an engagement metric, and since there is no metric for "home screen bookmarks made", there is no way for companies and managers to gamify the web site. Therefore, they simply don't care about the website, except as a means to get you to install the app. It's all a bullshit numbers game.
  - m1gu3l 4y ago
    That redesign to the new shittier reddit and their push to their dumb app was the second shark ollie over there.
- gwbas1c 4y ago
  Apps are easier to use than a browser. The flow of installing an app from the app store, and having an icon on the home screen, makes a lot more sense than opening a browser and navigating to a URL.
  - kergonath 4y ago
    Also, an app is there, with an icon on the home screen to remind the user of its existence. I think this makes future use more likely than if the user just entered the address, and even more than with a bookmark that is visible only in the browser. I know the users can create the icon themselves by saving a bookmark to the home screen, but for some reason they seem not to.
- kevincox 4y ago
  AFAIK this is a bunch of the most common reasons, somewhat ordered from most-important to least-important. 1. It puts an icon on your phone's home screen which reminds you it is there and encourages reuse. 2. They can put notification counters on said home-screen icon. 3. It is generally easier to convince people to enable notifications on the app than on the website. 4. User perception. Some users expect an app and look down on a website. (Even if functionally identical) 5. Blocking ads on websites is much easier than blocking them on mobile. 6. It can provide better tracking and analytics. 7. The app can provide a better experience. 7a. The ability to pre-download the application makes it less costly to provide more features and code. The just-in-time downloading of web applications means that the size of code, data and resources generally needs to be more carefully considered. Of course you can do careful code loading for webapps but it requires custom code instead of being managed by the store. 7b. Native apps generally have access to more APIs especially without needing to request special permission (contacts, device sensors, large amounts of storage, etc) 7c. Access to native UI toolkits can make the application fit into the expected UX better.
- teddyh 4y ago
  Web browsers still have some remnants of being a “user agent”. Apps, by contrast, are agents of their creators, noone else; certainly not the user.
BrutalCoding 4y ago
I haven’t tried sending push notifications to iOS over web yet but this should be possible since iOS 16 [1] because they introduced “web push”. According to Apple, it works cross-browser, even if the browser was killed by the user, and you are not required to have an Apple developer account. [1] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/sending_web_push_notifications_in_safari_and_other_browsers https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/...
- joshstrange 4y ago
  That feature isn't coming out till 2023 in a later iOS 16 release. We will see if that moves the needle but like I said in a comment below [0], even when push notifications aren't part of the conversation companies still just wants apps. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32939559 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32939559
  - encryptluks2 4y ago
    So stop developing for such a crappy closed platform?!?
    - ben_w 4y ago
      Interviewer at Generic iOS Contractor Co.: “OK, we’ll hire someone else.” *Interviewee exits, pursued by a door* Interviewer: “HR? Yes, please make a note not to offer that candidate any other roles, thanks. Yeah, for some reason they seemed to think their personal preferences were more important than solving our customer needs. Would be a terrible fit.”
      - encryptluks2 4y ago
        Please note candidate didn't like Nazis and we want people loyal to the company above all personal morals.
        ben_w 4y ago
intrasight 4y ago
Push Notifications will arrive next year. As will one-click install. A PWA can accept payments via Apple Pay. Yes, monetization is more challenging with a web app, but ultimately your value proposition is about how many eyeballs your app has - so the faster you can get to many eyeballs the better. As for building apps for clients - I find just the opposite to be true. They don't want to be subject to the whims of the review process. They just want to deliver their service to their users. What users think is not really relevant. They'll use it if they have to or if their friends are using it.

cageface 4y ago

I've switched to working on other kinds of apps, more rich desktop kinds of apps. I enjoy this a lot more too since most mobile apps are pretty dumb and gimmicky. Of course if you're doing client work you have to build what your clients are asking for and yeah the web is not a substitute for native in all cases.

SoftTalker 4y ago
Or find different clients.

LeifCarrotson 4y ago

Why do companies want an app? Is it just for telemetry? Just for push notifications? Just because their competitor/idol has an app and they want one too?

joshstrange 4y ago
> Why do companies want an app? It's not for telemetry (at least at the scale/size of companies I deal with). As far as I can tell it's the prestige. I know this because our initial app had no push notifications and the clients who paid for it wouldn't stop asking about an app and didn't even touch the (identical) web version. Push notifications are part of it for sure but I just wanted to give an example of a case where there were no features that were app-only but all they cared about was the app. I'd say "Yeah, we have that new feature and you can see it at yourbrand.ourcompany.com" and they'd say "Ok, when will we have an app?", felt like I was taking crazy pills but I've seen this exact same conversation repeated at multiple companies, multiple clients. And lest someone thing this is a subdomain-related thing, it's not, I had the same questions when we setup the web version at theirdomain.com.
uup 4y ago
Because web-based apps don't have a good user experience. Even a web app embedded inside of native app feels bad. Maybe it's something about WebKit specifically that feels bad, but there is a very noticeable difference between a web app and a native app. Part of the issue is the thread model. Touch events come in on the app's main thread, and then those touch events get dispatched on to the JavaScript thread, and then the JavaScript thread needs to dispatch to yet another thread to render. It's just impossible to achieve native-level touch interactions in a web-based app. And then there is there is the polish level. Apple has spent god knows how long polishing each and every native interaction. All the animation curves are perfect. You lose all of that polish when you build a web app.
radarsat1 4y ago
Drives me nuts that even just websites, like Reddit, push so hard to get you to install their app. I think it is not primarily related to notifications and telemetry, although that's obviously part of it, or to access to your contacts or whatever, like in the case of FB. My theory is that it's much simpler and dumber than that: that "number of app installs" has simply become a metric that managers can use to promote themselves inside a company, and that companies can ultimately use to sell shares. It's an engagement metric, and since there is no metric for "home screen bookmarks made", there is no way for companies and managers to gamify the web site. Therefore, they simply don't care about the website, except as a means to get you to install the app. It's all a bullshit numbers game.
- m1gu3l 4y ago
  That redesign to the new shittier reddit and their push to their dumb app was the second shark ollie over there.
gwbas1c 4y ago
Apps are easier to use than a browser. The flow of installing an app from the app store, and having an icon on the home screen, makes a lot more sense than opening a browser and navigating to a URL.
- kergonath 4y ago
  Also, an app is there, with an icon on the home screen to remind the user of its existence. I think this makes future use more likely than if the user just entered the address, and even more than with a bookmark that is visible only in the browser. I know the users can create the icon themselves by saving a bookmark to the home screen, but for some reason they seem not to.
kevincox 4y ago
AFAIK this is a bunch of the most common reasons, somewhat ordered from most-important to least-important. 1. It puts an icon on your phone's home screen which reminds you it is there and encourages reuse. 2. They can put notification counters on said home-screen icon. 3. It is generally easier to convince people to enable notifications on the app than on the website. 4. User perception. Some users expect an app and look down on a website. (Even if functionally identical) 5. Blocking ads on websites is much easier than blocking them on mobile. 6. It can provide better tracking and analytics. 7. The app can provide a better experience. 7a. The ability to pre-download the application makes it less costly to provide more features and code. The just-in-time downloading of web applications means that the size of code, data and resources generally needs to be more carefully considered. Of course you can do careful code loading for webapps but it requires custom code instead of being managed by the store. 7b. Native apps generally have access to more APIs especially without needing to request special permission (contacts, device sensors, large amounts of storage, etc) 7c. Access to native UI toolkits can make the application fit into the expected UX better.
teddyh 4y ago
Web browsers still have some remnants of being a “user agent”. Apps, by contrast, are agents of their creators, noone else; certainly not the user.

BrutalCoding 4y ago

I haven’t tried sending push notifications to iOS over web yet but this should be possible since iOS 16 [1] because they introduced “web push”. According to Apple, it works cross-browser, even if the browser was killed by the user, and you are not required to have an Apple developer account. [1] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/sending_web_push_notifications_in_safari_and_other_browsers https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/...

joshstrange 4y ago
That feature isn't coming out till 2023 in a later iOS 16 release. We will see if that moves the needle but like I said in a comment below [0], even when push notifications aren't part of the conversation companies still just wants apps. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32939559 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32939559
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  So stop developing for such a crappy closed platform?!?
  - ben_w 4y ago
    Interviewer at Generic iOS Contractor Co.: “OK, we’ll hire someone else.” *Interviewee exits, pursued by a door* Interviewer: “HR? Yes, please make a note not to offer that candidate any other roles, thanks. Yeah, for some reason they seemed to think their personal preferences were more important than solving our customer needs. Would be a terrible fit.”
    - encryptluks2 4y ago
      Please note candidate didn't like Nazis and we want people loyal to the company above all personal morals.
      - ben_w 4y ago

intrasight 4y ago

Push Notifications will arrive next year. As will one-click install. A PWA can accept payments via Apple Pay. Yes, monetization is more challenging with a web app, but ultimately your value proposition is about how many eyeballs your app has - so the faster you can get to many eyeballs the better. As for building apps for clients - I find just the opposite to be true. They don't want to be subject to the whims of the review process. They just want to deliver their service to their users. What users think is not really relevant. They'll use it if they have to or if their friends are using it.