6 ms·

My life has improved immeasurably since I gave up iOS dev and went back to the web. My baseline frustration level is so much lower.

joshstrange 4y ago
That might be a viable path if not for push notifications and the fact that companies want an app more than anything. I've used cross platform frameworks in the past and had the web version up and all I hear is "when app?", even though it's the same codebase, same look, sometimes without even leveraging anything like push notifications or other app-only features. They literally will not even look at the web version. I've proven this over 10+ different companies. I deliver the web version, then I get started on app store hell and only after the app (iOS is all they often care about, at least at the start) is out do they start giving feedback. It's frustrating since they normally have had access to the identical web version for weeks but they just don't care. I love the web, but users and companies just want apps, and I want to get paid.
- cageface 4y ago
  I've switched to working on other kinds of apps, more rich desktop kinds of apps. I enjoy this a lot more too since most mobile apps are pretty dumb and gimmicky. Of course if you're doing client work you have to build what your clients are asking for and yeah the web is not a substitute for native in all cases.
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    Or find different clients.
- LeifCarrotson 4y ago
  Why do companies want an app? Is it just for telemetry? Just for push notifications? Just because their competitor/idol has an app and they want one too?
  - joshstrange 4y ago
    > Why do companies want an app? It's not for telemetry (at least at the scale/size of companies I deal with). As far as I can tell it's the prestige. I know this because our initial app had no push notifications and the clients who paid for it wouldn't stop asking about an app and didn't even touch the (identical) web version. Push notifications are part of it for sure but I just wanted to give an example of a case where there were no features that were app-only but all they cared about was the app. I'd say "Yeah, we have that new feature and you can see it at yourbrand.ourcompany.com" and they'd say "Ok, when will we have an app?", felt like I was taking crazy pills but I've seen this exact same conversation repeated at multiple companies, multiple clients. And lest someone thing this is a subdomain-related thing, it's not, I had the same questions when we setup the web version at theirdomain.com.
  - uup 4y ago
    Because web-based apps don't have a good user experience. Even a web app embedded inside of native app feels bad. Maybe it's something about WebKit specifically that feels bad, but there is a very noticeable difference between a web app and a native app. Part of the issue is the thread model. Touch events come in on the app's main thread, and then those touch events get dispatched on to the JavaScript thread, and then the JavaScript thread needs to dispatch to yet another thread to render. It's just impossible to achieve native-level touch interactions in a web-based app. And then there is there is the polish level. Apple has spent god knows how long polishing each and every native interaction. All the animation curves are perfect. You lose all of that polish when you build a web app.
  - radarsat1 4y ago
    Drives me nuts that even just websites, like Reddit, push so hard to get you to install their app. I think it is not primarily related to notifications and telemetry, although that's obviously part of it, or to access to your contacts or whatever, like in the case of FB. My theory is that it's much simpler and dumber than that: that "number of app installs" has simply become a metric that managers can use to promote themselves inside a company, and that companies can ultimately use to sell shares. It's an engagement metric, and since there is no metric for "home screen bookmarks made", there is no way for companies and managers to gamify the web site. Therefore, they simply don't care about the website, except as a means to get you to install the app. It's all a bullshit numbers game.
- BrutalCoding 4y ago
  I haven’t tried sending push notifications to iOS over web yet but this should be possible since iOS 16 [1] because they introduced “web push”. According to Apple, it works cross-browser, even if the browser was killed by the user, and you are not required to have an Apple developer account. [1] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/sending_web_push_notifications_in_safari_and_other_browsers https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/...
  - joshstrange 4y ago
    That feature isn't coming out till 2023 in a later iOS 16 release. We will see if that moves the needle but like I said in a comment below [0], even when push notifications aren't part of the conversation companies still just wants apps. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32939559 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32939559
    - encryptluks2 4y ago
      So stop developing for such a crappy closed platform?!?
      - ben_w 4y ago
        Interviewer at Generic iOS Contractor Co.: “OK, we’ll hire someone else.” *Interviewee exits, pursued by a door* Interviewer: “HR? Yes, please make a note not to offer that candidate any other roles, thanks. Yeah, for some reason they seemed to think their personal preferences were more important than solving our customer needs. Would be a terrible fit.”
        encryptluks2 4y ago
        Please note candidate didn't like Nazis and we want people loyal to the company above all personal morals.
        ben_w 4y ago
- intrasight 4y ago
  Push Notifications will arrive next year. As will one-click install. A PWA can accept payments via Apple Pay. Yes, monetization is more challenging with a web app, but ultimately your value proposition is about how many eyeballs your app has - so the faster you can get to many eyeballs the better. As for building apps for clients - I find just the opposite to be true. They don't want to be subject to the whims of the review process. They just want to deliver their service to their users. What users think is not really relevant. They'll use it if they have to or if their friends are using it.
pier25 4y ago
I did the same. Dealing with Apple was an endless source of frustration.
ffhhj 4y ago
It seems that the golden age of apps is comming to an end. One of my many apps gets banned daily by Google due to some silly rule interpretation, which among them include what seems to be punishment for using an ad provider different from AdWords or whatever they call it now.

joshstrange 4y ago

That might be a viable path if not for push notifications and the fact that companies want an app more than anything. I've used cross platform frameworks in the past and had the web version up and all I hear is "when app?", even though it's the same codebase, same look, sometimes without even leveraging anything like push notifications or other app-only features. They literally will not even look at the web version. I've proven this over 10+ different companies. I deliver the web version, then I get started on app store hell and only after the app (iOS is all they often care about, at least at the start) is out do they start giving feedback. It's frustrating since they normally have had access to the identical web version for weeks but they just don't care. I love the web, but users and companies just want apps, and I want to get paid.

cageface 4y ago
I've switched to working on other kinds of apps, more rich desktop kinds of apps. I enjoy this a lot more too since most mobile apps are pretty dumb and gimmicky. Of course if you're doing client work you have to build what your clients are asking for and yeah the web is not a substitute for native in all cases.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Or find different clients.
LeifCarrotson 4y ago
Why do companies want an app? Is it just for telemetry? Just for push notifications? Just because their competitor/idol has an app and they want one too?
- joshstrange 4y ago
  > Why do companies want an app? It's not for telemetry (at least at the scale/size of companies I deal with). As far as I can tell it's the prestige. I know this because our initial app had no push notifications and the clients who paid for it wouldn't stop asking about an app and didn't even touch the (identical) web version. Push notifications are part of it for sure but I just wanted to give an example of a case where there were no features that were app-only but all they cared about was the app. I'd say "Yeah, we have that new feature and you can see it at yourbrand.ourcompany.com" and they'd say "Ok, when will we have an app?", felt like I was taking crazy pills but I've seen this exact same conversation repeated at multiple companies, multiple clients. And lest someone thing this is a subdomain-related thing, it's not, I had the same questions when we setup the web version at theirdomain.com.
- uup 4y ago
  Because web-based apps don't have a good user experience. Even a web app embedded inside of native app feels bad. Maybe it's something about WebKit specifically that feels bad, but there is a very noticeable difference between a web app and a native app. Part of the issue is the thread model. Touch events come in on the app's main thread, and then those touch events get dispatched on to the JavaScript thread, and then the JavaScript thread needs to dispatch to yet another thread to render. It's just impossible to achieve native-level touch interactions in a web-based app. And then there is there is the polish level. Apple has spent god knows how long polishing each and every native interaction. All the animation curves are perfect. You lose all of that polish when you build a web app.
- radarsat1 4y ago
  Drives me nuts that even just websites, like Reddit, push so hard to get you to install their app. I think it is not primarily related to notifications and telemetry, although that's obviously part of it, or to access to your contacts or whatever, like in the case of FB. My theory is that it's much simpler and dumber than that: that "number of app installs" has simply become a metric that managers can use to promote themselves inside a company, and that companies can ultimately use to sell shares. It's an engagement metric, and since there is no metric for "home screen bookmarks made", there is no way for companies and managers to gamify the web site. Therefore, they simply don't care about the website, except as a means to get you to install the app. It's all a bullshit numbers game.
BrutalCoding 4y ago
I haven’t tried sending push notifications to iOS over web yet but this should be possible since iOS 16 [1] because they introduced “web push”. According to Apple, it works cross-browser, even if the browser was killed by the user, and you are not required to have an Apple developer account. [1] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/sending_web_push_notifications_in_safari_and_other_browsers https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/...
- joshstrange 4y ago
  That feature isn't coming out till 2023 in a later iOS 16 release. We will see if that moves the needle but like I said in a comment below [0], even when push notifications aren't part of the conversation companies still just wants apps. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32939559 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32939559
  - encryptluks2 4y ago
    So stop developing for such a crappy closed platform?!?
    - ben_w 4y ago
      Interviewer at Generic iOS Contractor Co.: “OK, we’ll hire someone else.” *Interviewee exits, pursued by a door* Interviewer: “HR? Yes, please make a note not to offer that candidate any other roles, thanks. Yeah, for some reason they seemed to think their personal preferences were more important than solving our customer needs. Would be a terrible fit.”
      - encryptluks2 4y ago
        Please note candidate didn't like Nazis and we want people loyal to the company above all personal morals.
        ben_w 4y ago
intrasight 4y ago
Push Notifications will arrive next year. As will one-click install. A PWA can accept payments via Apple Pay. Yes, monetization is more challenging with a web app, but ultimately your value proposition is about how many eyeballs your app has - so the faster you can get to many eyeballs the better. As for building apps for clients - I find just the opposite to be true. They don't want to be subject to the whims of the review process. They just want to deliver their service to their users. What users think is not really relevant. They'll use it if they have to or if their friends are using it.

pier25 4y ago

I did the same. Dealing with Apple was an endless source of frustration.

ffhhj 4y ago

It seems that the golden age of apps is comming to an end. One of my many apps gets banned daily by Google due to some silly rule interpretation, which among them include what seems to be punishment for using an ad provider different from AdWords or whatever they call it now.