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I don't see how someone writing Java in 2016 would be stuck in a 1996 job. Is the same true of someone using C or C++ today?

michaelochurch 15y ago
It depends what the person's using the language for. I'd say "no" for C. C is still the leading language for a lot of purposes: operating systems, runtimes for higher-level languages, device drivers, and applications where tight control of memory use is important. In these domains, C hasn't been supplanted yet-- not even close. I don't know that C++ and Java have substantial domains in which they're superior to other choices. C++ is a badly-conceived cross between C and high-level languages and Java is the worst of the JVM languages.
- tomjen3 15y ago
  C++ isn't a badly-concieved cross. It is a bucket with everything thrown in. That said I wouldn't want to write larger programs in C and would prefer C++ simply because it scales better (assuming the other programmers don't use all the features it has, but confusing code can be written in any language). Also RAII is awesome.
- reissbaker 15y ago
  In AAA game development, it's C++ or go home. People can argue all day about the relative merits of Java, but C++ certainly has a domain in which it's superior to other choices.
  - nknight 15y ago
    C++ has a domain where it has a large foothold and extreme inertia. That says nothing about its fundamental merits. Your statement is also misleading for another reason. Core engine logic might be in C++, but actual "game" logic is increasingly being shoved into scripting languages like Lua.
    - reissbaker 15y ago
      Concern for and access to low-level implementation details is one of the fundamental features -- and in some cases merits -- of C++. In applications where program execution speed is important and you can't scale out by adding machines, C++ is a better option than dynamic languages. See: game engines. Yeah, you might add a scripting layer on top for some of the logic, but you can't write the engine in a dynamic language and get Battlefield 3. The other merit of C++ is that it's object-oriented, however awkward its implementation may be (insert Alan Kay quote here). The fact that it's both fast and natively object-oriented is why C++ for the most part replaced C in the game development community, which once had as much C-based inertia as it currently has C++-based. Is it a beautiful language? Noooooo way. But it has merits. Edit: before someone responds with "But computers will get faster and make C++ obsolete..." People's expectations for videogame graphics tend to increase as better graphics are made possible. It's a tough fight against an equilibrium, and the fact that the graphics of today will eventually be possible with dynamic languages in the future won't matter for as long as games are unable to reach perfect photorealism -- better-looking future games will come out, and Crysis-level graphics will look dated and shabby by comparison. For an example of previously-heralded graphics become obsolete even within a single console generation, when the first screenshots of Oblivion came out years ago there were people who truly couldn't believe that they were realtime and in-engine -- but dear God, look at Oblivion now. It's not hideous, yet, but it isn't pretty. And there's no way you could write that in pure Lua today -- not even at ten frames per second.
lmkg 15y ago
It's not so true for C and/or C++, because some of their niches are cutting-edge, like gaming and VMs. Where it is true is for languages like Visual Basic, or heaven forbid COBOL. If you are working with COBOL today, or even ten years ago, you're probably maintaining a 1980's mainframe for a 1980's company (VB is probably 90's). If I were to pull a prediction completely out of my ass, then my complete lack of experience or expertise in the matter says that Java is more likely to end up the VB of tomorrow than the C++ of tomorrow.

michaelochurch 15y ago

It depends what the person's using the language for. I'd say "no" for C. C is still the leading language for a lot of purposes: operating systems, runtimes for higher-level languages, device drivers, and applications where tight control of memory use is important. In these domains, C hasn't been supplanted yet-- not even close. I don't know that C++ and Java have substantial domains in which they're superior to other choices. C++ is a badly-conceived cross between C and high-level languages and Java is the worst of the JVM languages.

tomjen3 15y ago
C++ isn't a badly-concieved cross. It is a bucket with everything thrown in. That said I wouldn't want to write larger programs in C and would prefer C++ simply because it scales better (assuming the other programmers don't use all the features it has, but confusing code can be written in any language). Also RAII is awesome.
reissbaker 15y ago
In AAA game development, it's C++ or go home. People can argue all day about the relative merits of Java, but C++ certainly has a domain in which it's superior to other choices.
- nknight 15y ago
  C++ has a domain where it has a large foothold and extreme inertia. That says nothing about its fundamental merits. Your statement is also misleading for another reason. Core engine logic might be in C++, but actual "game" logic is increasingly being shoved into scripting languages like Lua.
  - reissbaker 15y ago
    Concern for and access to low-level implementation details is one of the fundamental features -- and in some cases merits -- of C++. In applications where program execution speed is important and you can't scale out by adding machines, C++ is a better option than dynamic languages. See: game engines. Yeah, you might add a scripting layer on top for some of the logic, but you can't write the engine in a dynamic language and get Battlefield 3. The other merit of C++ is that it's object-oriented, however awkward its implementation may be (insert Alan Kay quote here). The fact that it's both fast and natively object-oriented is why C++ for the most part replaced C in the game development community, which once had as much C-based inertia as it currently has C++-based. Is it a beautiful language? Noooooo way. But it has merits. Edit: before someone responds with "But computers will get faster and make C++ obsolete..." People's expectations for videogame graphics tend to increase as better graphics are made possible. It's a tough fight against an equilibrium, and the fact that the graphics of today will eventually be possible with dynamic languages in the future won't matter for as long as games are unable to reach perfect photorealism -- better-looking future games will come out, and Crysis-level graphics will look dated and shabby by comparison. For an example of previously-heralded graphics become obsolete even within a single console generation, when the first screenshots of Oblivion came out years ago there were people who truly couldn't believe that they were realtime and in-engine -- but dear God, look at Oblivion now. It's not hideous, yet, but it isn't pretty. And there's no way you could write that in pure Lua today -- not even at ten frames per second.

lmkg 15y ago

It's not so true for C and/or C++, because some of their niches are cutting-edge, like gaming and VMs. Where it is true is for languages like Visual Basic, or heaven forbid COBOL. If you are working with COBOL today, or even ten years ago, you're probably maintaining a 1980's mainframe for a 1980's company (VB is probably 90's). If I were to pull a prediction completely out of my ass, then my complete lack of experience or expertise in the matter says that Java is more likely to end up the VB of tomorrow than the C++ of tomorrow.