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>Because an ideology “looks upon all factuality as fabricated,” it “no longer knows any reliable criterion for distinguishing truth from falsehood.” As reality

>Because an ideology “looks upon all factuality as fabricated,” it “no longer knows any reliable criterion for distinguishing truth from falsehood.” As reality recedes, ideologies organize society to transform their ideas into living reality. I was struck by how closely this passages describes the ever-growing infection of post-modernism in contemporary US institutions.

imbnwa 4y ago
>the ever-growing infection of post-modernism in contemporary US institutions You make it sound like truth wasn't a game until now, all of a sudden, or that people weren't championing the goals they value until now, all of a sudden. Politics didn't start yesterday, you were simply more comfortable with previous regimes. 'Post-modernism' is one of the most over-used keywords to describe the current landscape, particularly if you think only a certain party can be accused of it.
- StanislavPetrov 4y ago
  >You make it sound like truth wasn't a game until now, all of a sudden, or that people weren't championing the goals they value until now, all of a sudden. My intention was to make it sound like objective reality was always at least part of the game until now. There has never been a period of time where the explicit rejection of objective reality in lieu of ideology has been a significant part of the United States "establishment". >'Post-modernism' is one of the most over-used keywords to describe the current landscape, particularly if you think only a certain party can be accused of it. Unfortunately rampant partisanship combined with a lack of education and critical thinking skills has left people unable to have any understanding of society outside of the false, contrived Republican vs Democratic binary narrative. As an example of the delusional brain-rot that has infected our institutions, I point you to a recent article from The Atlantic, which has been widely regarded as the voice of the DC Establishment for decades. > And though sex differences in sports show advantages for men, researchers today still don’t know how much of this to attribute to biological difference versus the lack of support provided to women athletes to reach their highest potential. https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2022/09/sports-gender-sex-segregation-coed/671460/ https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2022/09/sports-g...
  - inkcapmushroom 4y ago
    >There has never been a period of time where the explicit rejection of objective reality in lieu of ideology has been a significant part of the United States "establishment". The whole point is that objective reality ends very quickly past mathematical theorems. Slaves were not people according to the establishment, and it was common sense and objective fact that whites were superior. Until it wasn't. According to the mainstream homosexual people were objectively, factually mentally ill and evil, and then they weren't. Back when those ideas were mainstream, there were always people who rejected those "objective realities", but most people had a harder time spreading ideas which went against the mainstream then we do today. In other words, minority voices are louder now then any other time in history, and our sense of an objective reality relies on having a stable narrative grounded in the majority voice.
    - StanislavPetrov 4y ago
      >The whole point is that objective reality ends very quickly past mathematical theorems. In fact that's completely false. If a rock is flying through the air towards your head, and you don't move, that rock will hit you in the head. That is objective reality. Various people can come up with all sorts of narratives and beliefs about what that rock is, who threw it, whether or not the rock is sentient or represents something else entirely. But objective reality is the rock hitting you in the head. Reasonable people can argue about the meaning of the rock, why it was thrown, who threw it, or how it was otherwise ejected through the sky towards your head, but they all agree that the rock is there, flying through the sky towards your head. That is objective reality.
      - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
        In fact, you could say that this is more objective than mathematics. The rock is really there, whether or not you accept the axiom of choice, whether or not you like ZFC as an axiomatic basis, or whatever. It's even there if you think 2+2=5.
csours 4y ago
As I see it, facts come from a shared culture. So we have a definition of facts for school questions, a definition of facts for scientific studies, a definition of facts for the justice system, a definition of facts in narrative and artistic critique. But there's no zone in the brain that directly distinguishes facts from opinions or narratives. The brain has to recognize that other people exist, and those other people have beliefs. All of our culture is built on top of that, including our understanding of facts. If you were utterly alone, you would develop narratives about the world, but without external challenge there's no reason to believe that you would develop a conception of falsehood. The story of Adam and Eve in the Garden is kind of an echo of this. We are all individuals participating in culture.
- StanislavPetrov 4y ago
  >As I see it, facts come from a shared culture. This is part of the mindset I'm referring too. For example, 2+2 = 4. This mathematical statement has been self-evident and uncontroversial for thousands of years, across an almost infinite array of societies. The idea that this simple, self-evident mathematical statement is disputed by anyone, let alone "serious" academics in some of our most prestigious universities (the ones churning out our next generation of "leaders") is a new phenomenon, and one that should be very concerning.

imbnwa 4y ago

>the ever-growing infection of post-modernism in contemporary US institutions You make it sound like truth wasn't a game until now, all of a sudden, or that people weren't championing the goals they value until now, all of a sudden. Politics didn't start yesterday, you were simply more comfortable with previous regimes. 'Post-modernism' is one of the most over-used keywords to describe the current landscape, particularly if you think only a certain party can be accused of it.

StanislavPetrov 4y ago
>You make it sound like truth wasn't a game until now, all of a sudden, or that people weren't championing the goals they value until now, all of a sudden. My intention was to make it sound like objective reality was always at least part of the game until now. There has never been a period of time where the explicit rejection of objective reality in lieu of ideology has been a significant part of the United States "establishment". >'Post-modernism' is one of the most over-used keywords to describe the current landscape, particularly if you think only a certain party can be accused of it. Unfortunately rampant partisanship combined with a lack of education and critical thinking skills has left people unable to have any understanding of society outside of the false, contrived Republican vs Democratic binary narrative. As an example of the delusional brain-rot that has infected our institutions, I point you to a recent article from The Atlantic, which has been widely regarded as the voice of the DC Establishment for decades. > And though sex differences in sports show advantages for men, researchers today still don’t know how much of this to attribute to biological difference versus the lack of support provided to women athletes to reach their highest potential. https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2022/09/sports-gender-sex-segregation-coed/671460/ https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2022/09/sports-g...
- inkcapmushroom 4y ago
  >There has never been a period of time where the explicit rejection of objective reality in lieu of ideology has been a significant part of the United States "establishment". The whole point is that objective reality ends very quickly past mathematical theorems. Slaves were not people according to the establishment, and it was common sense and objective fact that whites were superior. Until it wasn't. According to the mainstream homosexual people were objectively, factually mentally ill and evil, and then they weren't. Back when those ideas were mainstream, there were always people who rejected those "objective realities", but most people had a harder time spreading ideas which went against the mainstream then we do today. In other words, minority voices are louder now then any other time in history, and our sense of an objective reality relies on having a stable narrative grounded in the majority voice.
  - StanislavPetrov 4y ago
    >The whole point is that objective reality ends very quickly past mathematical theorems. In fact that's completely false. If a rock is flying through the air towards your head, and you don't move, that rock will hit you in the head. That is objective reality. Various people can come up with all sorts of narratives and beliefs about what that rock is, who threw it, whether or not the rock is sentient or represents something else entirely. But objective reality is the rock hitting you in the head. Reasonable people can argue about the meaning of the rock, why it was thrown, who threw it, or how it was otherwise ejected through the sky towards your head, but they all agree that the rock is there, flying through the sky towards your head. That is objective reality.
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      In fact, you could say that this is more objective than mathematics. The rock is really there, whether or not you accept the axiom of choice, whether or not you like ZFC as an axiomatic basis, or whatever. It's even there if you think 2+2=5.

csours 4y ago

As I see it, facts come from a shared culture. So we have a definition of facts for school questions, a definition of facts for scientific studies, a definition of facts for the justice system, a definition of facts in narrative and artistic critique. But there's no zone in the brain that directly distinguishes facts from opinions or narratives. The brain has to recognize that other people exist, and those other people have beliefs. All of our culture is built on top of that, including our understanding of facts. If you were utterly alone, you would develop narratives about the world, but without external challenge there's no reason to believe that you would develop a conception of falsehood. The story of Adam and Eve in the Garden is kind of an echo of this. We are all individuals participating in culture.

StanislavPetrov 4y ago
>As I see it, facts come from a shared culture. This is part of the mindset I'm referring too. For example, 2+2 = 4. This mathematical statement has been self-evident and uncontroversial for thousands of years, across an almost infinite array of societies. The idea that this simple, self-evident mathematical statement is disputed by anyone, let alone "serious" academics in some of our most prestigious universities (the ones churning out our next generation of "leaders") is a new phenomenon, and one that should be very concerning.