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> This has been particularly relevant as Google, following the first Austrian decision, has begun to provide additional settings in relation to what data can be

by V__ 4y ago

> This has been particularly relevant as Google, following the first Austrian decision, has begun to provide additional settings in relation to what data can be collected by the tool. However, our conclusion is that the tool cannot, without more, be used lawfully. Even though Google has branches in Europe, again the website owners will get in legal trouble and not Google for offering a product which cannot be used legally. Is there any other industry where the client is responsible for making sure the service or product is legal and not the producer?

googlryas 4y ago
You can use google analytics legally in all of these areas that have deemed it illegal, because they're just saying it is illegal for common public-facing internet usage. You can still use google analytics for, say, corporate intranet sites in Denmark if you'd like.
- Xylakant 4y ago
  I doubt you can. If the data collection is illegal under the GDPR (or it’s incarnation under danish law), then it won’t help if you don’t use it in a public facing context. The GDPR doesn’t make any difference between subjects that are employed by the entity collecting the data and others.
- V__ 4y ago
  Sure, but that is not what Google is advertising, and it should be Google's responsibility to inform users about that. Exaggerated example: If I would buy a car which by design isn't road legal, and this design flaw would cause an accident killing someone. Normally the carmaker would be responsible. The carmaker couldn't say, well technically, it's only for use in your backyard, but you have to be a lawyer to know that, and our advertising isn't reflecting that at all. Somehow, Google get's away with such logic.
stickfigure 4y ago
> Is there any other industry where the client is responsible for making sure the service or product is legal and not the producer? Pretty much all of them? Let's say you buy a humble walkie-talkie. It is your responsibility to operate it in regions where the specific RF bands it uses are legal.
- V__ 4y ago
  And you as a customer are clearly informed about such limitations. No walkie-talkie would advertise themselves as free to use anywhere. Also, no walkie-talkie sold which by design uses the wrong frequencies would be allowed and would make the user liable and not the producer.
- PeterisP 4y ago
  No, that's not true, if you buy a walkie-talkie, the seller has all kinds of obligations to ensure that it follows the requirements. Radio devices are a good example where it fact is illegal to make, sell or import transmitters that do not conform to permitted RF bands. IIRC in USA there is an exemption in FCC rules if you're importing a device for personal use by e.g. buying it online from abroad (and then you're responsible to use it properly), but if you'd want to resell that device, you can't just transfer the liability to the user, you are responsible for ensuring that the transmitter follows FCC rules.
  - trasz 4y ago
    Not true - you can easily buy unlocked Baofeng radios in EU and nobody cares. FCC cared because American manufacturers couldn’t really compete on market terms.
    - PeterisP 4y ago
      The fact that nobody cares is a lack of enforcement (and exemptions for import for personal use) due to low priority, but it does not mean that it is legal to sell unlocked/unrestricted walkie-talkies in EU - it is not, at least not in all EU countries. For example, last year there was an explicit prohibition on sales of Baofeng UV-5R in Germany (https://www.bnetza-amtsblatt.de/download/72 https://www.bnetza-amtsblatt.de/download/72) and Poland and probably other countries due to out of band emissions causing radio interference.
dahfizz 4y ago
Its easy to buy car parts online that are illegal for road use. Same concept applies - you can build whatever kind of car, or website, you want. But there are rules about how that car or website must be used when around the general public.
- V__ 4y ago
  Can you buy illegal car parts (sold by a European entity, for example) which advertise themselves as road legal but aren't?
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    Does Google Analytics advertise itself as legal? As far as I know they never explicitly say that - they give you all the details you need to make the determination yourself, but never explicitly give you the answer.
    - V__ 4y ago
      I don't think that distinction legally matters (in Europe). Every product or service in Europe has to "ensure that your products meet the EU requirements to protect human and animal health, the environment and consumers rights." [1]. This means every consumer buying a product in Europe (from a European entitiy) can assume that the product or service is legal. [1] https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/selling-goods-services/selling-products-eu/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/selling-...
      - bloppe 4y ago
        There's nothing wrong with Google allowing a website to use GA. The problem only arises if that website then serves end-user traffic to EU citizens. Many European websites may choose to only use GA if the traffic is coming from outside the EU.
        V__ 4y ago
dataking 4y ago
> Is there any other industry where the client is responsible for making sure the service or product is legal and not the producer? Let's remember, for context, that the EU is saying that the US is an "unsafe" third party country. While this is certainly true under a given definition of safe/unsafe, I doubt (m)any European citizens can point to harm as a direct result of their data being subpoenaed under the US CLOUD act. I am not saying there isn't a real problem but as I mentioned in another comment, the US and EU have agreed "in principle" on a third privacy shield to satisfy concerns on both sides and we are now waiting for it to be codified and tested in courts.
- V__ 4y ago
  ECJ has declared "Privacy shield" as well as "Safe Harbor" null and void, since those were merely agreements, which never side codified into actual law. So I don't think there will be any new court decisions regarding those. I also don't think most Europeans are really worried about US government intrusions into their privacy, thoug I don't know the legal implications the CLOUD act would have in this context. Honestly, I think anybody takes US government intrusions for granted after the Snowden leaks. It's the companies people are worried about. Facebook, Google have a scary amount of power and lack of oversight.

by V__ 4y ago

googlryas 4y ago

You can use google analytics legally in all of these areas that have deemed it illegal, because they're just saying it is illegal for common public-facing internet usage. You can still use google analytics for, say, corporate intranet sites in Denmark if you'd like.

Xylakant 4y ago
I doubt you can. If the data collection is illegal under the GDPR (or it’s incarnation under danish law), then it won’t help if you don’t use it in a public facing context. The GDPR doesn’t make any difference between subjects that are employed by the entity collecting the data and others.
V__ 4y ago
Sure, but that is not what Google is advertising, and it should be Google's responsibility to inform users about that. Exaggerated example: If I would buy a car which by design isn't road legal, and this design flaw would cause an accident killing someone. Normally the carmaker would be responsible. The carmaker couldn't say, well technically, it's only for use in your backyard, but you have to be a lawyer to know that, and our advertising isn't reflecting that at all. Somehow, Google get's away with such logic.

stickfigure 4y ago

> Is there any other industry where the client is responsible for making sure the service or product is legal and not the producer? Pretty much all of them? Let's say you buy a humble walkie-talkie. It is your responsibility to operate it in regions where the specific RF bands it uses are legal.

V__ 4y ago
And you as a customer are clearly informed about such limitations. No walkie-talkie would advertise themselves as free to use anywhere. Also, no walkie-talkie sold which by design uses the wrong frequencies would be allowed and would make the user liable and not the producer.
PeterisP 4y ago
No, that's not true, if you buy a walkie-talkie, the seller has all kinds of obligations to ensure that it follows the requirements. Radio devices are a good example where it fact is illegal to make, sell or import transmitters that do not conform to permitted RF bands. IIRC in USA there is an exemption in FCC rules if you're importing a device for personal use by e.g. buying it online from abroad (and then you're responsible to use it properly), but if you'd want to resell that device, you can't just transfer the liability to the user, you are responsible for ensuring that the transmitter follows FCC rules.
- trasz 4y ago
  Not true - you can easily buy unlocked Baofeng radios in EU and nobody cares. FCC cared because American manufacturers couldn’t really compete on market terms.
  - PeterisP 4y ago
    The fact that nobody cares is a lack of enforcement (and exemptions for import for personal use) due to low priority, but it does not mean that it is legal to sell unlocked/unrestricted walkie-talkies in EU - it is not, at least not in all EU countries. For example, last year there was an explicit prohibition on sales of Baofeng UV-5R in Germany (https://www.bnetza-amtsblatt.de/download/72 https://www.bnetza-amtsblatt.de/download/72) and Poland and probably other countries due to out of band emissions causing radio interference.

dahfizz 4y ago

Its easy to buy car parts online that are illegal for road use. Same concept applies - you can build whatever kind of car, or website, you want. But there are rules about how that car or website must be used when around the general public.

V__ 4y ago
Can you buy illegal car parts (sold by a European entity, for example) which advertise themselves as road legal but aren't?
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  Does Google Analytics advertise itself as legal? As far as I know they never explicitly say that - they give you all the details you need to make the determination yourself, but never explicitly give you the answer.
  - V__ 4y ago
    I don't think that distinction legally matters (in Europe). Every product or service in Europe has to "ensure that your products meet the EU requirements to protect human and animal health, the environment and consumers rights." [1]. This means every consumer buying a product in Europe (from a European entitiy) can assume that the product or service is legal. [1] https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/selling-goods-services/selling-products-eu/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/selling-...
    - bloppe 4y ago
      There's nothing wrong with Google allowing a website to use GA. The problem only arises if that website then serves end-user traffic to EU citizens. Many European websites may choose to only use GA if the traffic is coming from outside the EU.
      - V__ 4y ago

dataking 4y ago

> Is there any other industry where the client is responsible for making sure the service or product is legal and not the producer? Let's remember, for context, that the EU is saying that the US is an "unsafe" third party country. While this is certainly true under a given definition of safe/unsafe, I doubt (m)any European citizens can point to harm as a direct result of their data being subpoenaed under the US CLOUD act. I am not saying there isn't a real problem but as I mentioned in another comment, the US and EU have agreed "in principle" on a third privacy shield to satisfy concerns on both sides and we are now waiting for it to be codified and tested in courts.

V__ 4y ago
ECJ has declared "Privacy shield" as well as "Safe Harbor" null and void, since those were merely agreements, which never side codified into actual law. So I don't think there will be any new court decisions regarding those. I also don't think most Europeans are really worried about US government intrusions into their privacy, thoug I don't know the legal implications the CLOUD act would have in this context. Honestly, I think anybody takes US government intrusions for granted after the Snowden leaks. It's the companies people are worried about. Facebook, Google have a scary amount of power and lack of oversight.