6 ms·

Documents Reveal TSA Proposal To Body-Scan Pedestrians, Train Passengers

124 points by georgecmu 15y ago

nextparadigms 15y ago
As long as people will irrationally fear "terrorism" and will be willing to let anything pass in the name of fighting terrorism, this will go even further. They'll let them even do random check-ups in your home. TSA wants to go much further, just like any Governemnt agency would. By going further and expanding their territory, they will get more funds.
Bud 15y ago
This is what we get, as a society, for not insisting that "Homeland Security" be shut down back in, say, late 2001, once it became clear that it could do absolutely no good for society, and would certainly cause great harm to Constitutional rights. The permanent fear culture of security theater is now far too entrenched among moneyed interests. It will take a massive effort by the public and by Congress to even begin to uproot it.
- narrator 15y ago
  The rule in American government is that only solutions that will be considered to any political problem must involve spending more money. If you want to shut down Homeland Security, I would suggest proposing replacing it with a new agency that can spend more money than Homeland Security is currently spending.
  - rhizome 15y ago
    Wouldn't that be the same as just renaming the agency? It's going to be comprised of the same career people and contracting companies anyway. There needs to be hard restrictions on their powers.
- wavephorm 15y ago
  When a strong regime receives new powers from the people they are rarely given back. Don't kid yourself, DHS, the Patriot Act, the border fence, and now SOPA, once they are passed they aren't ever going away.
  - ams6110 15y ago
    Yeah if they are taken back it is usually done by force or revolution, seldom pretty.
- neuroelectronic 15y ago
  We need to shut it down. It's already pulling $50bil a year in taxes http://deathandtaxesposter.com/ http://deathandtaxesposter.com/
sixtofour 15y ago
I wonder if North Korea is open to sister city treaties?
danilocampos 15y ago
You know how country musicians remind us that "freedom ain't free?" Well, it ain't. But it's not under assault by people with different-colored skin in foreign lands. The people who want to fuck us out of our freedom are people we keep electing, or are appointed by the same. Can't believe no one's ever written a country song about that. People want to rag on OWS for being unfocused or whatever. But you know what? I'm glad to see a few comfortable first worlders step up and provide a sustained cry that they're not comfortable with the status quo. I don't know what the long-term solution is for this power- (and genital-) grabbing nonsense. But I'm pretty sure it starts by getting pissed off and is continued by saying so, out loud, in public, in numbers.
- delwin 15y ago
  Agreed, wholeheartedly. And the media isn't helping, enforcing the idea that there are two parties in America: Republicans and Democrats. Countries are not divided like that anymore, and perhaps never have been. Government will always be about the powerful versus the powerless. And the politically-influenced media renders most of us ignorant (I consider myself pretty aware, but who knows what I haven't found out yet; I learn new, shocking things every day!).
  - rdtsc 15y ago
    Forgot who, perhaps Chomsky, said that the rich in this country are actually veritable Marxists. The poor are not, they don't believe in class struggle, they fancy themselves as pre-rich, by being carefully groomed via propaganda. The rich on the other hand are Marxists because they understand very well how the class system works, and they are actively engaged in making sure their class survives and dominates the working class. EDIT: The bit about rich being Marxists is apparently Chomsky """I think he would take it for granted that elites are basically Marxist - they believe in class analysis, they believe in class struggle, and in a really business-run society like the United States, the business elites are deeply committed to class struggle and are engaged in it all the time. And they understand. They’re instinctive Marxists; they don't have to read it."""
    - 15y ago
tomkinstinch 15y ago
Imagine if scanners were everywhere, but rather than scanning for weapons they were scanning for tumors and other health problems (and since this is fiction, also imagine that the ionizing radiation dose is negligible).
- DannoHung 15y ago
  Given that this is fiction, can we imagine that the scanners also find malfeasance by businessmen, government officials, and all other echelons of the powerful?
- drivebyacct2 15y ago
  Ironic given that many indications imply that the backscatter scanners may deliver unhealthy or unsafe doses of radiation.
- nodata 15y ago
  Why would you need these scanners "everywhere"? Why not just walk into a health place and walk out again? Why not have one at home?
marchdown 15y ago
Hey, Americans. This whole mess is truly unbelievable from over the pond. Aren't there legal procedures in place to stop this unconstitutional, incredibly annoying, intrusive and expensive fearmongering campaign? Yeah, it was introduced at precisely the right moment by people in positions of trust and power, but haven't you had quite enough already? The head honcho, Pistole, is a deranged veteran of War on Terror. There isn't a yota of evidence in support of their paranoid fantasies. No one is out to get you. Just back down before you've found yourselves living in a police state without a legal recourse. I know, this has been said time and again already, but venting your frustration on the internet is counterproductive — it assuages an urge to actually do something — and do something you should, because TSA won't dissolve by itself. But there's another side to the endless discussions on the Internet — by illuminating legal specifics of the situation you could effect a slow, incremental progress in public awareness.
- anigbrowl 15y ago
  Where are you posting from? I don't support this, but I still find the US preferable to living in London and being recorded by 100 CCTV cameras a day. Motes, beams, etc.
- nextparadigms 15y ago
  I believe Internet support is a necessary prerequisite to see that you are not alone in this. This was a critical thing in the revolutions in Egypt and all the other countries. It's much easier to go outside and protest when you see pictures and messages from thousands and thousands of people on the spot.
- potatolicious 15y ago
  I once made the mistake of expressing this opinion (i.e., that airport security is pure theatre, completely irrelevant, and isn't making anyone safer) on a shuttle for a high-tech software company. I guess I kind of assumed that software engineers would be natural skeptics, and predominantly liberal to boot. Well, nope, that wasn't a safe assumption at all. I had 2-3 people agree with me enthusiastically, 4-5 argue passionately about how the terrorists would win if we let up, and the rest of the bus just stared like me like I just transmogrified into Osama himself for daring to suggest such a thing. So yeah, if the a supposedly scientific, data-driven, skeptical population broke down like that, I'm not surprised that this sort of thing is happening without much resistance. And it's for this reason I hold nearly no hope that any of these abuses will ever be curbed. The only question I really want answered is: when did America turn from being such a badass, never running away from a fight, to such cowards, willing to do anything, give up anything, for one iota of perceived safety? This was in 2009 FWIW...
eli 15y ago
Greyhound buses too.
- nobody314159265 15y ago
  After someone was stabbed and kille don a Greyhound in canada there was a call for airport style screening of passengers. Given that most greyhound stops in Canada are REALLY in the middle of nowhere this looked like it was going to prove interesting. Picture a parking lot at a crossroads in the tundra 100mi from anywhere, a greyhound sign on a pole. An x-ray machine, stack of plastic crates and a backscatter scanner manned by a dozen very very cold and bored mounties.
suking 15y ago
Pretty soon they'll be scanning us to get onto freeways...
hammock 15y ago
Update: A TSA official responds in a statement that the “TSA has not tested the advanced imaging technology that is currently used at airports in mass transit environments and does not have plans to do so.” This is false and I have photo evidence. One year ago I noted that the TSA was doing naked scans (looked like mm wave) on everyone in the tunnel between the Chicago subway and the O'Hare airport, just outside the train platform in a non-sterile area and hundreds of yards away from any actual airport terminal (if you have ever gone to O'hare via the train, you will know once you get off the train it's about another quarter mile walk through a tunnel to get to the airport). I spoke to an agent that was there on site and he confirmed they were "doing tests." Told me they were not stopping anyone that day based on what they saw in the scans, but I would have guessed they would radio intelligence to the airport personnel if they saw anything suspicious. Here's the photo[1] I took of the scanning station- there were two set up on either side in the tunnel such that you could not exit or enter the subway station without passing in front of it. [1]http://twitpic.com/35njtt http://twitpic.com/35njtt
- lurchpop 15y ago
  Here's another story about the vans from the year before: http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2010/08/24/full-body-scan-technology-deployed-in-street-roving-vans/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2010/08/24/full-bo...
  - Ryanmf 15y ago
    On the topic of roving backscatter vans: “From a privacy standpoint, I’m hard-pressed to see what the concern or objection could be,”…says [Joe Reiss, Vice President of Marketing at backscatter developer American Science and Engineering, Rensselaer '85, Northeastern MBA '91]. In that case, Joe, it sounds as if you're a bit too ignorant and/or selfish to be making that call.
    - electromagnetic 15y ago
      > “From a privacy standpoint, I’m hard-pressed to see what the concern or objection could be,” I'm sure thousands of peeping toms have said the same thing to a judge and got a jail sentence anyway. IMO if a "vice president of marketing" says anything about a product, then the opposite is the truth. It's very easy to claim there's not a problem when you have a six figure paycheck and will never have to walk through one of these machines in your life.
VladRussian 15y ago
Seems like tin foil hats, jackets and pants are going to be in fashion
aantthony 15y ago
It should say "Documents CONFIRM TSA Proposal To Body-Scan Pedestrians, Train Passengers". I mean, it's not like it's a secret.
brc 15y ago
But the TSA (and Homeland Security) is now a full-fledged government bureaucracy, complete with a power structure, employeees with statutory rights, and inter-agency links, and no doubt pocket congress members with 'TSA creates jobs' talking points. The job of the people at the TSA will always to be to ensure the TSA not only continues to exist, that it continues to grow and become more important. Any actual security outcomes will be a side effect, not the primary goal. At no point will the management say 'know what? We're actually wasting money here, let's recommend to congress that we be disbanded'. It's madness when creating these institutions not to put a self-destruct clause in them. Ie, In when created in 2001, it would be decreed that in 2011, a review will be organised to see if the TSA has actually materially affected terrorism activities. Of course, the review would be a whitewash, but at least it would keep people remembering that this was a temporary solution to a temporary problem.
- SkyMarshal 15y ago
  >It's madness when creating these institutions not to put a self-destruct clause in them. Ie, In when created in 2001, it would be decreed that in 2011, a review will be organised to see if the TSA has actually materially affected terrorism activities. Better yet, a sunset clause, where the agency is automatically disbanded 10 years later unless explicitly renewed by Congress for another ten years. Slightly better chance of it getting disbanded then.
  - JoeAltmaier 15y ago
    The Post Office seems to keep getting funded...
agreenberg 15y ago
Just discovering this thread...I'm the author of the article linked above, and I actually wrote a follow-up to the story a couple of days later. http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2011/03/09/tsa-never-tested-full-body-scans-for-mass-transit-except-when-it-did/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2011/03/09/tsa-nev... The DHS was totally dishonest with me in their comments on the initially story, and less than fully honest even in their subsequent follow-up response to my questions. I was disappointed that only a fraction of the readers who read the first post noticed the second, so I'm glad hammock below was able to point out the DHS's contradictions. Thanks to everyone for reading.
- zacharycohn 15y ago
  Thanks for updating us. Can't you update this article?
  - agreenberg 15y ago
    Done.
- nodata 15y ago
  Don't be disappointed. Include a link to the new article.
kevin_jacobs 15y ago
This is from March 2011, I haven't found any newer articles on the same subject. It seems no new news on this front since then?
LeafStorm 15y ago
I don't know whether they were referring to intercity passenger rail (Amtrak) with this, but what's rather surprising is that now Amtrak, at least in North Carolina, has just about zero security. You line up on the platform, you show the conductor your ticket when you get on the train (or say that you need to buy one), and then there's a random chance that your ID will be checked after you sit down and the train gets underway (mine never has been). Checked baggage is probably checked (not sure), but they don't even run your carry-ons through an X-ray scanner or ask you to walk through a metal detector. At most stations the platform is at least locked most of the time (even if it's only with a gate and a chain-link fence), but at some (like Raleigh) anyone can walk up to the platform at any time. Yet despite all this I can't recall ever hearing of a violent act of terrorism being committed on a train.
yock 15y ago
Side-stepping the obvious civil liberty issues, where exactly does the "Transportation" Safety Administration derive its authority to screen people who aren't using public transport?

124 points by georgecmu 15y ago

As long as people will irrationally fear "terrorism" and will be willing to let anything pass in the name of fighting terrorism, this will go even further. They'll let them even do random check-ups in your home. TSA wants to go much further, just like any Governemnt agency would. By going further and expanding their territory, they will get more funds.

Bud 15y ago

This is what we get, as a society, for not insisting that "Homeland Security" be shut down back in, say, late 2001, once it became clear that it could do absolutely no good for society, and would certainly cause great harm to Constitutional rights. The permanent fear culture of security theater is now far too entrenched among moneyed interests. It will take a massive effort by the public and by Congress to even begin to uproot it.

narrator 15y ago
The rule in American government is that only solutions that will be considered to any political problem must involve spending more money. If you want to shut down Homeland Security, I would suggest proposing replacing it with a new agency that can spend more money than Homeland Security is currently spending.
- rhizome 15y ago
  Wouldn't that be the same as just renaming the agency? It's going to be comprised of the same career people and contracting companies anyway. There needs to be hard restrictions on their powers.
wavephorm 15y ago
When a strong regime receives new powers from the people they are rarely given back. Don't kid yourself, DHS, the Patriot Act, the border fence, and now SOPA, once they are passed they aren't ever going away.
- ams6110 15y ago
  Yeah if they are taken back it is usually done by force or revolution, seldom pretty.
neuroelectronic 15y ago
We need to shut it down. It's already pulling $50bil a year in taxes http://deathandtaxesposter.com/ http://deathandtaxesposter.com/

sixtofour 15y ago

I wonder if North Korea is open to sister city treaties?

danilocampos 15y ago

You know how country musicians remind us that "freedom ain't free?" Well, it ain't. But it's not under assault by people with different-colored skin in foreign lands. The people who want to fuck us out of our freedom are people we keep electing, or are appointed by the same. Can't believe no one's ever written a country song about that. People want to rag on OWS for being unfocused or whatever. But you know what? I'm glad to see a few comfortable first worlders step up and provide a sustained cry that they're not comfortable with the status quo. I don't know what the long-term solution is for this power- (and genital-) grabbing nonsense. But I'm pretty sure it starts by getting pissed off and is continued by saying so, out loud, in public, in numbers.

delwin 15y ago
Agreed, wholeheartedly. And the media isn't helping, enforcing the idea that there are two parties in America: Republicans and Democrats. Countries are not divided like that anymore, and perhaps never have been. Government will always be about the powerful versus the powerless. And the politically-influenced media renders most of us ignorant (I consider myself pretty aware, but who knows what I haven't found out yet; I learn new, shocking things every day!).
- rdtsc 15y ago
  Forgot who, perhaps Chomsky, said that the rich in this country are actually veritable Marxists. The poor are not, they don't believe in class struggle, they fancy themselves as pre-rich, by being carefully groomed via propaganda. The rich on the other hand are Marxists because they understand very well how the class system works, and they are actively engaged in making sure their class survives and dominates the working class. EDIT: The bit about rich being Marxists is apparently Chomsky """I think he would take it for granted that elites are basically Marxist - they believe in class analysis, they believe in class struggle, and in a really business-run society like the United States, the business elites are deeply committed to class struggle and are engaged in it all the time. And they understand. They’re instinctive Marxists; they don't have to read it."""
  - 15y ago

tomkinstinch 15y ago

Imagine if scanners were everywhere, but rather than scanning for weapons they were scanning for tumors and other health problems (and since this is fiction, also imagine that the ionizing radiation dose is negligible).

DannoHung 15y ago
Given that this is fiction, can we imagine that the scanners also find malfeasance by businessmen, government officials, and all other echelons of the powerful?
drivebyacct2 15y ago
Ironic given that many indications imply that the backscatter scanners may deliver unhealthy or unsafe doses of radiation.
nodata 15y ago
Why would you need these scanners "everywhere"? Why not just walk into a health place and walk out again? Why not have one at home?

marchdown 15y ago

Hey, Americans. This whole mess is truly unbelievable from over the pond. Aren't there legal procedures in place to stop this unconstitutional, incredibly annoying, intrusive and expensive fearmongering campaign? Yeah, it was introduced at precisely the right moment by people in positions of trust and power, but haven't you had quite enough already? The head honcho, Pistole, is a deranged veteran of War on Terror. There isn't a yota of evidence in support of their paranoid fantasies. No one is out to get you. Just back down before you've found yourselves living in a police state without a legal recourse. I know, this has been said time and again already, but venting your frustration on the internet is counterproductive — it assuages an urge to actually do something — and do something you should, because TSA won't dissolve by itself. But there's another side to the endless discussions on the Internet — by illuminating legal specifics of the situation you could effect a slow, incremental progress in public awareness.

anigbrowl 15y ago
Where are you posting from? I don't support this, but I still find the US preferable to living in London and being recorded by 100 CCTV cameras a day. Motes, beams, etc.
nextparadigms 15y ago
I believe Internet support is a necessary prerequisite to see that you are not alone in this. This was a critical thing in the revolutions in Egypt and all the other countries. It's much easier to go outside and protest when you see pictures and messages from thousands and thousands of people on the spot.
potatolicious 15y ago
I once made the mistake of expressing this opinion (i.e., that airport security is pure theatre, completely irrelevant, and isn't making anyone safer) on a shuttle for a high-tech software company. I guess I kind of assumed that software engineers would be natural skeptics, and predominantly liberal to boot. Well, nope, that wasn't a safe assumption at all. I had 2-3 people agree with me enthusiastically, 4-5 argue passionately about how the terrorists would win if we let up, and the rest of the bus just stared like me like I just transmogrified into Osama himself for daring to suggest such a thing. So yeah, if the a supposedly scientific, data-driven, skeptical population broke down like that, I'm not surprised that this sort of thing is happening without much resistance. And it's for this reason I hold nearly no hope that any of these abuses will ever be curbed. The only question I really want answered is: when did America turn from being such a badass, never running away from a fight, to such cowards, willing to do anything, give up anything, for one iota of perceived safety? This was in 2009 FWIW...

eli 15y ago

Greyhound buses too.

nobody314159265 15y ago
After someone was stabbed and kille don a Greyhound in canada there was a call for airport style screening of passengers. Given that most greyhound stops in Canada are REALLY in the middle of nowhere this looked like it was going to prove interesting. Picture a parking lot at a crossroads in the tundra 100mi from anywhere, a greyhound sign on a pole. An x-ray machine, stack of plastic crates and a backscatter scanner manned by a dozen very very cold and bored mounties.

suking 15y ago

Pretty soon they'll be scanning us to get onto freeways...

hammock 15y ago

Update: A TSA official responds in a statement that the “TSA has not tested the advanced imaging technology that is currently used at airports in mass transit environments and does not have plans to do so.” This is false and I have photo evidence. One year ago I noted that the TSA was doing naked scans (looked like mm wave) on everyone in the tunnel between the Chicago subway and the O'Hare airport, just outside the train platform in a non-sterile area and hundreds of yards away from any actual airport terminal (if you have ever gone to O'hare via the train, you will know once you get off the train it's about another quarter mile walk through a tunnel to get to the airport). I spoke to an agent that was there on site and he confirmed they were "doing tests." Told me they were not stopping anyone that day based on what they saw in the scans, but I would have guessed they would radio intelligence to the airport personnel if they saw anything suspicious. Here's the photo[1] I took of the scanning station- there were two set up on either side in the tunnel such that you could not exit or enter the subway station without passing in front of it. [1]http://twitpic.com/35njtt http://twitpic.com/35njtt

lurchpop 15y ago
Here's another story about the vans from the year before: http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2010/08/24/full-body-scan-technology-deployed-in-street-roving-vans/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2010/08/24/full-bo...
- Ryanmf 15y ago
  On the topic of roving backscatter vans: “From a privacy standpoint, I’m hard-pressed to see what the concern or objection could be,”…says [Joe Reiss, Vice President of Marketing at backscatter developer American Science and Engineering, Rensselaer '85, Northeastern MBA '91]. In that case, Joe, it sounds as if you're a bit too ignorant and/or selfish to be making that call.
  - electromagnetic 15y ago
    > “From a privacy standpoint, I’m hard-pressed to see what the concern or objection could be,” I'm sure thousands of peeping toms have said the same thing to a judge and got a jail sentence anyway. IMO if a "vice president of marketing" says anything about a product, then the opposite is the truth. It's very easy to claim there's not a problem when you have a six figure paycheck and will never have to walk through one of these machines in your life.

VladRussian 15y ago

Seems like tin foil hats, jackets and pants are going to be in fashion

aantthony 15y ago

It should say "Documents CONFIRM TSA Proposal To Body-Scan Pedestrians, Train Passengers". I mean, it's not like it's a secret.

brc 15y ago

But the TSA (and Homeland Security) is now a full-fledged government bureaucracy, complete with a power structure, employeees with statutory rights, and inter-agency links, and no doubt pocket congress members with 'TSA creates jobs' talking points. The job of the people at the TSA will always to be to ensure the TSA not only continues to exist, that it continues to grow and become more important. Any actual security outcomes will be a side effect, not the primary goal. At no point will the management say 'know what? We're actually wasting money here, let's recommend to congress that we be disbanded'. It's madness when creating these institutions not to put a self-destruct clause in them. Ie, In when created in 2001, it would be decreed that in 2011, a review will be organised to see if the TSA has actually materially affected terrorism activities. Of course, the review would be a whitewash, but at least it would keep people remembering that this was a temporary solution to a temporary problem.

SkyMarshal 15y ago
>It's madness when creating these institutions not to put a self-destruct clause in them. Ie, In when created in 2001, it would be decreed that in 2011, a review will be organised to see if the TSA has actually materially affected terrorism activities. Better yet, a sunset clause, where the agency is automatically disbanded 10 years later unless explicitly renewed by Congress for another ten years. Slightly better chance of it getting disbanded then.
- JoeAltmaier 15y ago
  The Post Office seems to keep getting funded...

agreenberg 15y ago

Just discovering this thread...I'm the author of the article linked above, and I actually wrote a follow-up to the story a couple of days later. http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2011/03/09/tsa-never-tested-full-body-scans-for-mass-transit-except-when-it-did/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2011/03/09/tsa-nev... The DHS was totally dishonest with me in their comments on the initially story, and less than fully honest even in their subsequent follow-up response to my questions. I was disappointed that only a fraction of the readers who read the first post noticed the second, so I'm glad hammock below was able to point out the DHS's contradictions. Thanks to everyone for reading.

zacharycohn 15y ago
Thanks for updating us. Can't you update this article?
- agreenberg 15y ago
  Done.
nodata 15y ago
Don't be disappointed. Include a link to the new article.

kevin_jacobs 15y ago

This is from March 2011, I haven't found any newer articles on the same subject. It seems no new news on this front since then?

LeafStorm 15y ago

I don't know whether they were referring to intercity passenger rail (Amtrak) with this, but what's rather surprising is that now Amtrak, at least in North Carolina, has just about zero security. You line up on the platform, you show the conductor your ticket when you get on the train (or say that you need to buy one), and then there's a random chance that your ID will be checked after you sit down and the train gets underway (mine never has been). Checked baggage is probably checked (not sure), but they don't even run your carry-ons through an X-ray scanner or ask you to walk through a metal detector. At most stations the platform is at least locked most of the time (even if it's only with a gate and a chain-link fence), but at some (like Raleigh) anyone can walk up to the platform at any time. Yet despite all this I can't recall ever hearing of a violent act of terrorism being committed on a train.

yock 15y ago

Side-stepping the obvious civil liberty issues, where exactly does the "Transportation" Safety Administration derive its authority to screen people who aren't using public transport?