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This is why those visa restrictions for russian citizens are counterproductive. We should rather send charter flights to Russia to pick people up who are willin

by cm2187 4y ago

This is why those visa restrictions for russian citizens are counterproductive. We should rather send charter flights to Russia to pick people up who are willing to leave the country (also the ukraine war is particularly unpopular among educated russians).

dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago
While I understand your logic, who is left to save the country then?
- seydor 4y ago
  I believe russians have long ago resigned from trying to change the regime and expect it to fall instead.
  - SauciestGNU 4y ago
    Yeah but what's the failure mode? If only Putin supporters and people who didn't have the means to flee are left, what's the next regime going to look like? For what it's worth, I support people dodging this and every draft.
    - seydor 4y ago
      This is what happens to all failed countries, it s a negative feedback loop
    - rchaud 4y ago
      What's left is a relatively weak resource-dependent nation whose economic fate is tied to whether they can stay in the good graces of the regional power. Same as most other places in the world.
  - throwayyy479087 4y ago
    Despite what the news says, hugs portions of the population support these actions. They are not a captive state.
- chupasaurus 4y ago
  This question has a good follow-up: and how it affects the chance of nukes flying everywhere?
Theodores 4y ago
If you are writing about educated people then you need to use your capital letters consistently and cite sources. It is just a credibility thing. Flights could have been maintained for the last two hundred days. Russia has had no sanctions against the West and honoured contracts. It was the West that stopped the flights, denying the option for Russian people to leave.
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  Nobody denied anything, not sure why you do lie so obviously. Flights ie via Istanbul were fully booked since February, you have no idea how many russians spent their holidays in ie Egypt or Sicily. I've been to both after invasion and let me tell you, sometimes I felt I am in some russian black sea resort, just russians everywhere. They still do travel into Europe, just need to add a hop or two. Same for Switzerland, chock full of them just as before. You can spot them from mile, and their language is hard to not recognize immediately (especially since I come from former eastern bloc previously occupied by russians)
  - Theodores 4y ago
  - orloffm 4y ago
    Half of them are Ukrainians.
lawn 4y ago
The problem with that is that Russia is also heavily encouraging citizens to action in other countries (such as attacking humanitarian aid to Ukraine or Ukrainan refuges). Or regular spies.
- arinlen 4y ago
  > The problem with that is that Russia is also heavily encouraging citizens to action in other countries (such as attacking humanitarian aid to Ukraine or Ukrainan refuges). Or regular spies. This. We already have Putin's pundits demanding thins like the Russian diaspora to increase waste of gas in Germany and the like to contribute to keeping Germany dependant on Russian gas. We have elements of the Russian diaspora organizing protests against support for Ukraine, and in support of Russia's invasion. We have Russian tourists flashing Russia's fascist symbols and messages of support of Russia's invasion, oppression, and genocide campaign. And now these guys are supposed to want out? These sudden refugees are no better than those Russians who suddenly felt compelled to flee south Ukraine, specially Crimea, when Russia's war effort started to crumble.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Yeah, I hate it too if people flee from war or use yheir right of free speech and assembly in democratic countries. How dare they!
    - arinlen 4y ago
      > Yeah, I hate it too if people flee from war or use yheir right of free speech and assembly in democratic countries. How dare they! You seem confused. Tell me which war are these invasion- and genocide-supporting russians fleeing from. Or are we supposed to believe that to Russia's fascist militants a war is only awesome if it's everyone else doing the fighting?
      - hef19898 4y ago
        Didn't we talk about Russians leaving the Crimea? That would make it rather obvious which war they are fleeing from. And yes, as long as Russians in, e.g., Germany are protesting in support of the war, and follow the rules concerning demonstrations, they should be allowed to do so.
arinlen 4y ago
> This is why those visa restrictions for russian citizens are counterproductive. There is already a wealth of reports of Russian tourists being enthusiastically militant about Russia's invasion of Ukraine to the point of assaulting people who bear any relationship with the country or show any semblance of support and even vandalizing their tourist destinations with propaganda supporting Russia's assault. If these prospective political refugees exist, in the very least they should actually stand up against their country's murderous and self-destructive attack on Ukraine. Until then, let them reap what they sow.
- logical_ferry 4y ago
  This. Why should the West act as a safety valve for Russian dissidents? It's their society, they've made it the way it is, it's not like Putin created the modern Russian society. Putin is just an amalgam of forces.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Yeah, why would we host dissidents from countries we almost at war with? Good for all of us the UK didn' host a buch of dissidents and governments in exile during WW2... Oh, wait, they did!
    - arinlen 4y ago
      > Yeah, why would we host dissidents from countries we almost at war with? Don't confuse chickenhawks with dissidents.
    - logical_ferry 4y ago
      Oh UK did it 80 years ago? Well then Ivan, come right in. And bring everybody who is war-averse with you, we wouldn't want any harm coming upon them, would we? Feel free to organize yourself any way you see fit and if you don't like how we made your morning toast - just cry "Russophobia". Just kidding. https://9gag.com/gag/amAN4v2 https://9gag.com/gag/amAN4v2
logical_ferry 4y ago
How many are you willing to accept as your roommates? I heard only nasty stories about Russian tourist, no reason to believe your average Ivan is any better.
- sleepdreamy 4y ago
  Meh. I have a weirdly unique counter-point. Of course totally anecdotal but: I lived in a shore town for a few years that exclusively had a ton of Ukrainian/Russian workers over the summertime. Not only were they usually quite attractive - they were also intelligent and hard working (most of the time, emphasis on MOST of the time) You had to be careful as they would latch onto you for obvious reasons but they were honestly typically pleasant. (Green Card, etc;) Where did you hear/read about russian horror stories?
  - logical_ferry 4y ago
    Croatia.
- justsomehnguy 4y ago
  > I heard only nasty stories about Russian tourist Before 2022 could you even distinguish between a Russian and Ukrainian? Especially if the latter is speaking Russian?
  - logical_ferry 4y ago
    Try asking them?
    - justsomehnguy 4y ago
      What forbids someone doing shit not answering to you truthfully? Or not answering at all or answering wrong because they would like for you to blame wrong people? > I heard only nasty stories about Russian tourist Edit: and this is doesn't answer my question: did you have been able to distinguish between them? Did the people who told you nasty stories could distinguish between them? In 2022 it is much easier because they haul their flag almost everywhere, but before that?

by cm2187 4y ago

dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago

While I understand your logic, who is left to save the country then?

seydor 4y ago
I believe russians have long ago resigned from trying to change the regime and expect it to fall instead.
- SauciestGNU 4y ago
  Yeah but what's the failure mode? If only Putin supporters and people who didn't have the means to flee are left, what's the next regime going to look like? For what it's worth, I support people dodging this and every draft.
  - seydor 4y ago
    This is what happens to all failed countries, it s a negative feedback loop
  - rchaud 4y ago
    What's left is a relatively weak resource-dependent nation whose economic fate is tied to whether they can stay in the good graces of the regional power. Same as most other places in the world.
- throwayyy479087 4y ago
  Despite what the news says, hugs portions of the population support these actions. They are not a captive state.
chupasaurus 4y ago
This question has a good follow-up: and how it affects the chance of nukes flying everywhere?

Theodores 4y ago

If you are writing about educated people then you need to use your capital letters consistently and cite sources. It is just a credibility thing. Flights could have been maintained for the last two hundred days. Russia has had no sanctions against the West and honoured contracts. It was the West that stopped the flights, denying the option for Russian people to leave.

saiya-jin 4y ago
Nobody denied anything, not sure why you do lie so obviously. Flights ie via Istanbul were fully booked since February, you have no idea how many russians spent their holidays in ie Egypt or Sicily. I've been to both after invasion and let me tell you, sometimes I felt I am in some russian black sea resort, just russians everywhere. They still do travel into Europe, just need to add a hop or two. Same for Switzerland, chock full of them just as before. You can spot them from mile, and their language is hard to not recognize immediately (especially since I come from former eastern bloc previously occupied by russians)
- Theodores 4y ago
- orloffm 4y ago
  Half of them are Ukrainians.

lawn 4y ago

The problem with that is that Russia is also heavily encouraging citizens to action in other countries (such as attacking humanitarian aid to Ukraine or Ukrainan refuges). Or regular spies.

arinlen 4y ago
> The problem with that is that Russia is also heavily encouraging citizens to action in other countries (such as attacking humanitarian aid to Ukraine or Ukrainan refuges). Or regular spies. This. We already have Putin's pundits demanding thins like the Russian diaspora to increase waste of gas in Germany and the like to contribute to keeping Germany dependant on Russian gas. We have elements of the Russian diaspora organizing protests against support for Ukraine, and in support of Russia's invasion. We have Russian tourists flashing Russia's fascist symbols and messages of support of Russia's invasion, oppression, and genocide campaign. And now these guys are supposed to want out? These sudden refugees are no better than those Russians who suddenly felt compelled to flee south Ukraine, specially Crimea, when Russia's war effort started to crumble.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Yeah, I hate it too if people flee from war or use yheir right of free speech and assembly in democratic countries. How dare they!
  - arinlen 4y ago
    > Yeah, I hate it too if people flee from war or use yheir right of free speech and assembly in democratic countries. How dare they! You seem confused. Tell me which war are these invasion- and genocide-supporting russians fleeing from. Or are we supposed to believe that to Russia's fascist militants a war is only awesome if it's everyone else doing the fighting?
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Didn't we talk about Russians leaving the Crimea? That would make it rather obvious which war they are fleeing from. And yes, as long as Russians in, e.g., Germany are protesting in support of the war, and follow the rules concerning demonstrations, they should be allowed to do so.

arinlen 4y ago

> This is why those visa restrictions for russian citizens are counterproductive. There is already a wealth of reports of Russian tourists being enthusiastically militant about Russia's invasion of Ukraine to the point of assaulting people who bear any relationship with the country or show any semblance of support and even vandalizing their tourist destinations with propaganda supporting Russia's assault. If these prospective political refugees exist, in the very least they should actually stand up against their country's murderous and self-destructive attack on Ukraine. Until then, let them reap what they sow.

logical_ferry 4y ago
This. Why should the West act as a safety valve for Russian dissidents? It's their society, they've made it the way it is, it's not like Putin created the modern Russian society. Putin is just an amalgam of forces.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Yeah, why would we host dissidents from countries we almost at war with? Good for all of us the UK didn' host a buch of dissidents and governments in exile during WW2... Oh, wait, they did!
  - arinlen 4y ago
    > Yeah, why would we host dissidents from countries we almost at war with? Don't confuse chickenhawks with dissidents.
  - logical_ferry 4y ago
    Oh UK did it 80 years ago? Well then Ivan, come right in. And bring everybody who is war-averse with you, we wouldn't want any harm coming upon them, would we? Feel free to organize yourself any way you see fit and if you don't like how we made your morning toast - just cry "Russophobia". Just kidding. https://9gag.com/gag/amAN4v2 https://9gag.com/gag/amAN4v2

logical_ferry 4y ago

How many are you willing to accept as your roommates? I heard only nasty stories about Russian tourist, no reason to believe your average Ivan is any better.

sleepdreamy 4y ago
Meh. I have a weirdly unique counter-point. Of course totally anecdotal but: I lived in a shore town for a few years that exclusively had a ton of Ukrainian/Russian workers over the summertime. Not only were they usually quite attractive - they were also intelligent and hard working (most of the time, emphasis on MOST of the time) You had to be careful as they would latch onto you for obvious reasons but they were honestly typically pleasant. (Green Card, etc;) Where did you hear/read about russian horror stories?
- logical_ferry 4y ago
  Croatia.
justsomehnguy 4y ago
> I heard only nasty stories about Russian tourist Before 2022 could you even distinguish between a Russian and Ukrainian? Especially if the latter is speaking Russian?
- logical_ferry 4y ago
  Try asking them?
  - justsomehnguy 4y ago
    What forbids someone doing shit not answering to you truthfully? Or not answering at all or answering wrong because they would like for you to blame wrong people? > I heard only nasty stories about Russian tourist Edit: and this is doesn't answer my question: did you have been able to distinguish between them? Did the people who told you nasty stories could distinguish between them? In 2022 it is much easier because they haul their flag almost everywhere, but before that?