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Apparently, neither Russia nor "the Western alliance" is willing to settle this war. Again and again I see on German television that when someone tries to outl

by sazz 4y ago

Apparently, neither Russia nor "the Western alliance" is willing to settle this war. Again and again I see on German television that when someone tries to outline the current situation rationally, they are immediately bludgeoned by an emotional opposition. It seems that we Germans have recently become more and more disgusted with putting things into perspective. Whereas it used to be a punishable offence to relativise the Holocaust (which was a very good general consensus for a long time due to it's impact), it now seems to have been extended to Corona, the Ukraine war and, in fact, any other topic. Actually, one is not allowed to relativise anything anymore - otherwise one is immediately considered an insensitive egoist. Understanding for the opposing side? Then you are a troll on Putin's side. Conductors and singers are dismissed and declared persona non grata for not explicitly opposing Putin. As if only people with the correct attitude are allowed to perform art. Haven't we been through this before? I grew up with Babylon 5, and have virtually absorbed its philosophy. "Never start a fight, but always finish it" was one of those phrases. We should have learned from the history of the First World War that more soldiers and more weapons do not solve wars. Not without a clear strategy to achieve certain realistic goals. So well-paid journalists, who never leave their desks, sit in the talk rounds and demand more heavy artillery. Because of the dead children and so on. But is even one of them asked what specific military goal is to be achieved? To bring Russia to its knees? That they should never be able to make territorial claims again? Wakey, wakey! We have been through this before. Especially Germany. Didn't end too well, by the way. And I really seriously ask myself whether anyone wants to end this war at all. Or whether the feigned naivety is just to hide the fact that they just want to be the winner again. And everyone else should get a bloody nose because this time we are on the right side. As always.

amai 4y ago
> But is even one of them asked what specific military goal is to be achieved? To bring Russia to its knees? That they should never be able to make territorial claims again? The specific goal is set by the government of Ukraine, not by journalists. And these goals are: "return of all Ukrainian territory, comprehensive multilateral security guarantees, reparations, and war crimes charges." (https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-war-goals-demands-nato-russia-lines-collapse-kharkiv-counter-attack-1742009 https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-war-goals-demands-nato-russ...) And Germany promised to support Ukraine as long as it takes: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germanys-scholz-we-will-keep-up-support-ukraine-long-it-takes-2022-08-29/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germanys-scholz-we-will... I think that is quite clear.
- sazz 4y ago
  Excuse me, but this is exactly the naive nonsense I mean. > And these goals are: "Return of all Ukrainian territory, comprehensive multilateral security guarantees, reparations and war crimes indictments." Oh, so the goal will be for Ukraine to defeat Russia to the last, Selensky to accept the surrender at the Red Square, and Putin answers to Hague? The only way to achieve this is to go to Moscow and force the government out of office. Sounds easy! Just a few more bloody battles in St. Petersburg and Moscow because Putin is not thinking of giving up voluntarily and we are back home by tea time? Or should the war - as long as it lasts - go on for the next 30 years? So what is the military strategy now? Throw the Russian forces out of Ukraine and then fight their way to Moscow? Write Ukraine a blank cheque, blindly provide them with weapons and let them do as they please? And of course, since the Ukrainian army are the good guys and the Russians are the bad guys - did Selensky guaranteed never to take revenge on the Russian population? Is he even capable of giving such a guarantee? Because war crimes are obviously committed - exclusively - only by the Russians? This is war. So do really think only bad guys do war crimes? What about reparations then? Will Germany also get a small war profit - after all, the German population suffered from the non-existent economic war and spent a lot of money on artillery?
  - amai 4y ago
    > Oh, so the goal will be for Ukraine to defeat Russia to the last, Selensky to accept the surrender at the Red Square, and Putin answers to Hague? Look at the history of Vietnam war and Afghanistan war. In both cases the nuclear power lost against a "smaller" enemy. But did the Vietnam army accept surrender at the white house? Did the Afghanistan army accept the surrender at the red square? No! In both cases the US army and the USSR army simply went home and the war was over. The same will happen in Ukraine.
  - megous 4y ago
    If your public demands will be low key, what can you sacrifice during negotiations to end the war? Only things that will really hurt. You reading too much into these proclamations as if they are some absolutes. Ukraine will just try to get back as much as possible, as any country would. And all these "we will support Ukraine until the end" proclamations also can't be taken literally. If allies would say, "ok, we will support Ukraine for next 4 months, if it's not over by then, the support will stop" that would just be a signal to the enemy to slow burn the war for 4 months while preparing for offensive in 4 months. I don't know what you're really expecting to be said publicly... > German population suffered from the non-existent economic war How can you suffer from something that does not exist?

by sazz 4y ago

amai 4y ago

> But is even one of them asked what specific military goal is to be achieved? To bring Russia to its knees? That they should never be able to make territorial claims again? The specific goal is set by the government of Ukraine, not by journalists. And these goals are: "return of all Ukrainian territory, comprehensive multilateral security guarantees, reparations, and war crimes charges." (https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-war-goals-demands-nato-russia-lines-collapse-kharkiv-counter-attack-1742009 https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-war-goals-demands-nato-russ...) And Germany promised to support Ukraine as long as it takes: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germanys-scholz-we-will-keep-up-support-ukraine-long-it-takes-2022-08-29/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germanys-scholz-we-will... I think that is quite clear.

sazz 4y ago
Excuse me, but this is exactly the naive nonsense I mean. > And these goals are: "Return of all Ukrainian territory, comprehensive multilateral security guarantees, reparations and war crimes indictments." Oh, so the goal will be for Ukraine to defeat Russia to the last, Selensky to accept the surrender at the Red Square, and Putin answers to Hague? The only way to achieve this is to go to Moscow and force the government out of office. Sounds easy! Just a few more bloody battles in St. Petersburg and Moscow because Putin is not thinking of giving up voluntarily and we are back home by tea time? Or should the war - as long as it lasts - go on for the next 30 years? So what is the military strategy now? Throw the Russian forces out of Ukraine and then fight their way to Moscow? Write Ukraine a blank cheque, blindly provide them with weapons and let them do as they please? And of course, since the Ukrainian army are the good guys and the Russians are the bad guys - did Selensky guaranteed never to take revenge on the Russian population? Is he even capable of giving such a guarantee? Because war crimes are obviously committed - exclusively - only by the Russians? This is war. So do really think only bad guys do war crimes? What about reparations then? Will Germany also get a small war profit - after all, the German population suffered from the non-existent economic war and spent a lot of money on artillery?
- amai 4y ago
  > Oh, so the goal will be for Ukraine to defeat Russia to the last, Selensky to accept the surrender at the Red Square, and Putin answers to Hague? Look at the history of Vietnam war and Afghanistan war. In both cases the nuclear power lost against a "smaller" enemy. But did the Vietnam army accept surrender at the white house? Did the Afghanistan army accept the surrender at the red square? No! In both cases the US army and the USSR army simply went home and the war was over. The same will happen in Ukraine.
- megous 4y ago
  If your public demands will be low key, what can you sacrifice during negotiations to end the war? Only things that will really hurt. You reading too much into these proclamations as if they are some absolutes. Ukraine will just try to get back as much as possible, as any country would. And all these "we will support Ukraine until the end" proclamations also can't be taken literally. If allies would say, "ok, we will support Ukraine for next 4 months, if it's not over by then, the support will stop" that would just be a signal to the enemy to slow burn the war for 4 months while preparing for offensive in 4 months. I don't know what you're really expecting to be said publicly... > German population suffered from the non-existent economic war How can you suffer from something that does not exist?