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Really scary to imagine what that must be like. My heart goes out to those Russian citizens. EDIT: In case it's not obvious, I'm referring to people who do not

Really scary to imagine what that must be like. My heart goes out to those Russian citizens. EDIT: In case it's not obvious, I'm referring to people who do not support invading another country and murdering innocent people, but are being drafted to do so anyways.

jwr 4y ago
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  > (yes, I expect this comment to be unpopular, truth isn't always popular) If only Americans could be as self-righteous and morally involved when it comes to their own country imperialistic invasions…
  - mildmotive 4y ago
    The same logic can be elsewhere too, given enough support.
  - vogt 4y ago
    Plenty of us do, and did during the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. That didn’t stop those invasions just like Russian citizens protesting the current war won’t stop Putin’s doubling down. To assume everyone in Russia toes the party line is unfair to them.
- bobkazamakis 4y ago
  >and where currently support for the invasion hovers around 70% on average Yeah man, Russians are going to go around answering polls truthfully right now. Brilliant.
  - rr888 4y ago
    Imagine getting an anoymous phone survey "Do you support Putin's glorious Special Operation in Ukraine or are you a nefarious traitor"
    - roveo 4y ago
      Oh, I actually received such a call from a government-funded polling agency while still in Russia. Told them everything I think about it (which was still somewhat difficult despite the fact that the actual risks were low), but some questions were tricky to answer in such a way that actually reflects my opinion, e.g. something like "do you think our army is succeeding in defeating the nationalist batallions in Ukraine and protecting the people of Donbas?" Yes/No/Refuse_answer
- dmitrygr 4y ago
  Not sure if you're naive or a troll, but i'll assume the better, as per site rules. So, what makes you think that a poll in a country like Russia will get honest answers? Currently speaking out against the war there is a jailable offense.
  - logical_ferry 4y ago
    > Currently speaking out against the war there is a jailable offense. They'll have a chance to speak more openly with their comrades once they reach Ukraine.
- jjulius 4y ago
  There have been plenty of protests across Russia since this announcement, as well as since the invasion of Ukraine began in earnest earlier this year. It is also illegal to speak out against the war in Russia, so that statistic is likely specious at best. Given that, are you arguing that you are holding every Russian citizen accountable for the sins of the ruling class? Do you believe in nuance?
  - coryrc 4y ago
    - jjulius 4y ago
      >If Donald Trump becomes US president again, then, unless we take action (dissolve the union?) then we'll all be complicit, even those that voted against. You and I seem to share similar political views in that area, but this is fundamentally untrue. >If I stand by in my liberal enclave, paying big national taxes, then, I'll be individually responsible. As a US citizen who has felt uneasy about knowing where my taxes have gone both at the state and federal levels, I fully understand that I am not to blame. Neither are you. >Unless they're actively sabotaging they are complicit. I get the feeling that you don't really know what it's like to live within a regime as oppressive as Russia. Neither do I, but because of that ignorance I'm not going to pretend that it's fair to hold those citizens accountable.
  - mildmotive 4y ago
    I don’t believe that’s what he said. He basically just pointed out that we should be careful not to speak of the Russian people as if they’re all innocent prisoners of this evil regime. It’s not a very accurate representation either. I’m quoting him: “we are talking about the nation that invaded another country, targeting civilians, raping and murdering”. Did Putin himself do all of this? No, it was a significant part of the Russian people that did. An even larger portion of the Russian people supported these crimes. They (the people referred to here) are not innocent. Edit: Just as a disclaimer, I do question the 70% stat. I don’t know where that comes from or if such a number can even be reliably acquired given the censorship that’s going on in Russia.
- silasdavis 4y ago
  Do you assume responsibility for your nation state?
  - logical_ferry 4y ago
    My nation state exterminated Jews and other nationalities in WW2. I do feel a bit of responsibility and shame. Putin didn't appear in vacuum. He is a product of his society. Every Russian out there is to blame for this war.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - faebi 4y ago
      > Every Russian out there is to blame for this war. You might as well blame the poor for being poor. I understand every Russian who says it's not worth it to try.
      - logical_ferry 4y ago
        Well, they'll have an opportunity to rethink their views in Ukraine. Germany was a militaristic society once. They aren't anymore.
    - chupasaurus 4y ago
      > Putin didn't appear in vacuum. He is a product of his society. Every Russian out there is to blame for this war. I agree with first 2 sentences but have to correct: his societies were outlaws and KGB (legal outlaws) which is far from representing the whole population.
      - logical_ferry 4y ago
        > which is far from representing the whole population. They had parents, went to daycare, went to school, made life choices, went to university, worked a job... They didn't just materialize in KGB one day.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Sure, just stop showing compassion for the average Russian families worried about their sons because their authoritarian leader started a war he cannot win with an army that is at least allowed to tale out their frustration on civilians. Average citizens and grunts on different sides of a war have more in common with each other then they have with their respective leadership.
  - varjag 4y ago
    The average Russian family has been supporting their authoritarian leader and the war he started.
    - logical_ferry 4y ago
      Exactly. Most of them are brainwashed. And it's just gonna get worse. Russia is out of the picture for decades to come.
      - tpmx 4y ago
        Some are brainwashed. Some are fully on board, without any need for brainwashing. Most are on the path of least resistance, not asking many questions as long as life is ~comfortable, or at least not getting dramatically worse. They kind of like the strongman. And there is always alcohol/drugs. Added: In general I agree with varjag's assessment. The average Russian family supports Putin.
        logical_ferry 4y ago
        Summed up nicely. But now they will get some sobering up. I have little faith that Russian society is going to come out of this war any better. It's a cultural thing. Germany had to be razed to the ground by am external force and millions of Germans had to be killed for the society to ditch militarism. And Russia has nukes.
      - masijo 4y ago
        Yeah exactly. You're the only one inmune to propaganda, it's everyone else who is brainwashed. It obviously couldn't happen to you since you're smart, and "normal Russian people" aren't.
- revlolz 4y ago
  Who cares if they used the "correct" words? They were not joking and also not generalizing and condemning an entire segment of humanity. If you would call every German in the 40's a nazi or every Afghani in the early 2000's a terrorist, then it is you who is incorrect and untruthful.
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  Support for the war is at 70% - because 70% of Russians think Ukraine is mass-murdering the own citizens and Hitler has resurrected from his grave to run Ukraine himself. I don't think that's necessarily saying that Russians in general are any more or less awful than the rest of the global population - just that their information sources are terrible. As Ice-T remarked on gang wars... Don't hate the player, hate the game.
  - vbezhenar 4y ago
    > 70% of Russians think Hitler has resurrected from his grave to run Ukraine himself. This mistake is understandable, when Zelensky's security wears totenkopf signs: https://metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/SEI_125395028-a285.jpg https://metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/SEI_125395028...
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Oh dear... you know that the USMC Scout/ Snipers aren't the resureccted SS, despite sharing the same initials?
      - vbezhenar 4y ago
        Average Russian is a simple guy. When he sees SS emblem who were known to kill his relatives 80 years ago, he does not give a benefit of doubt. He just recognises fascists and acts accordingly. I understand that civilised Europeans can see it as a little national colourite of a newfounded Ukrainian nation. Russians are not very inclusive in that regard.
        luckylion 4y ago
        > He just recognises fascists and acts accordingly. So ... the average Russian is now going to kill Putin because his Wagner-buddy is a Neo-Nazi and so are (at least some of) his troops? I won't hold my breath, but good luck. https://en.respublica.lt/signs-of-neo-nazi-ideology-amongst-russian-mercenaries https://en.respublica.lt/signs-of-neo-nazi-ideology-amongst-...
- mildmotive 4y ago
- justsomehnguy 4y ago
  > truth isn't always popular Yeah, as the 'freedom fries'. Remember that?
- logical_ferry 4y ago
- cm2187 4y ago
  I know that collective gilt is en vogue right now, but that's a very narrow way to see a country which population hasn't had much of a say on public policies for centuries. The logical consequence of collective guilt is war crimes and genocides.
  - logical_ferry 4y ago
    Perhaps if Russia society didn't just descend in apathy this whole mess could have been avoided. They took the easy way out, now it's time to pay. It was one thing when it was someone else doing the fighting, but now when it's your or your son's ass on the line it's a different ballgame, eh?
- lp0_on_fire 4y ago
  > and where currently support for the invasion hovers around 70% on average The Russian government / Putin isn't exactly known for tolerating political dissent. Is it really surprising that citizens say they support the state when asked by some random pollster, let alone someone from state-affiliated media?
- dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago
  > currently support for the invasion hovers around 70% on average I've never believed this number. Yes, I have many friends who have been brainwashed by the state media and they really believe that Ukrainians had been killing Russians in Ukraine so Putin had no choice, but most realize this is plan horseshit and just want to live in peace.
- noobermin 4y ago
  As someone else noted, that statistic may be inflated as it is illegal to speak out against the war there, but the 30% of russians are decent enough and deserve sympathy. Also, it's fine to wish the Russian soldiers actually fighting ill but even people with bad opinions deserve life, to some degree. Making many of them fight likely to their death is horrible and you shouldn't wish it on anyone.
  - throwaway777845 4y ago
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  Looking at the absolute dearth of volunteers for the slaughter, the support for invasion seems to be rather lukewarm. Also, I read that doing polls in RU is now a challenge, because only a tiny minority of respondents won't hang up immediately when asked about something sensitive. So the numbers may be total garbage. I don't doubt that there are a lot of avid supporters, but I doubt the 70 per cent figure.
warinukraine 4y ago
Do you know that Russian citizens for the most part support this war?
- JoeAltmaier 4y ago
  By what independent survey? citation please
- hadlock 4y ago
  Russians supported the war when it was a largely professional army doing the invading. Support for war is typically thought to decline when your own family members get dragged into it and injured. Drafts have never been popular politically.
- dgan 4y ago
  i think we can conclude with high confidence that those paying ~1000€ for a plane ticket to flee before mobilization, aren't actually supporting it
  - drakonka 4y ago
    I think the only thing we can conclude from that is that they're not willing to risk their own lives for it. It says nothing about their overall sentiment about the invasion itself.
noncoml 4y ago
“Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.” Please don’t get triggered by OP. He/she obviously means the ones that don’t support the war, have 0 influence about what the government does, and will be forced to go and die in a foreign country. Having empathy for the Russians citizens that are going to die fighting a war they don’t support is not mutually exclusive to having sympathy for the Ukrainians.
- throwaway777845 4y ago
throwaway777845 4y ago
jacke 4y ago
It could go to the end only by two things: * With lots of corpses from one side. Bodies have penetrated with ATACMS Missile * 21th Gorbachyov (less probability, those who in charge are scarred as hell) No other options. The mental settings about society in Russia

jwr 4y ago

WastingMyTime89 4y ago
> (yes, I expect this comment to be unpopular, truth isn't always popular) If only Americans could be as self-righteous and morally involved when it comes to their own country imperialistic invasions…
- mildmotive 4y ago
  The same logic can be elsewhere too, given enough support.
- vogt 4y ago
  Plenty of us do, and did during the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. That didn’t stop those invasions just like Russian citizens protesting the current war won’t stop Putin’s doubling down. To assume everyone in Russia toes the party line is unfair to them.
bobkazamakis 4y ago
>and where currently support for the invasion hovers around 70% on average Yeah man, Russians are going to go around answering polls truthfully right now. Brilliant.
- rr888 4y ago
  Imagine getting an anoymous phone survey "Do you support Putin's glorious Special Operation in Ukraine or are you a nefarious traitor"
  - roveo 4y ago
    Oh, I actually received such a call from a government-funded polling agency while still in Russia. Told them everything I think about it (which was still somewhat difficult despite the fact that the actual risks were low), but some questions were tricky to answer in such a way that actually reflects my opinion, e.g. something like "do you think our army is succeeding in defeating the nationalist batallions in Ukraine and protecting the people of Donbas?" Yes/No/Refuse_answer
dmitrygr 4y ago
Not sure if you're naive or a troll, but i'll assume the better, as per site rules. So, what makes you think that a poll in a country like Russia will get honest answers? Currently speaking out against the war there is a jailable offense.
- logical_ferry 4y ago
  > Currently speaking out against the war there is a jailable offense. They'll have a chance to speak more openly with their comrades once they reach Ukraine.
jjulius 4y ago
There have been plenty of protests across Russia since this announcement, as well as since the invasion of Ukraine began in earnest earlier this year. It is also illegal to speak out against the war in Russia, so that statistic is likely specious at best. Given that, are you arguing that you are holding every Russian citizen accountable for the sins of the ruling class? Do you believe in nuance?
- coryrc 4y ago
  - jjulius 4y ago
    >If Donald Trump becomes US president again, then, unless we take action (dissolve the union?) then we'll all be complicit, even those that voted against. You and I seem to share similar political views in that area, but this is fundamentally untrue. >If I stand by in my liberal enclave, paying big national taxes, then, I'll be individually responsible. As a US citizen who has felt uneasy about knowing where my taxes have gone both at the state and federal levels, I fully understand that I am not to blame. Neither are you. >Unless they're actively sabotaging they are complicit. I get the feeling that you don't really know what it's like to live within a regime as oppressive as Russia. Neither do I, but because of that ignorance I'm not going to pretend that it's fair to hold those citizens accountable.
- mildmotive 4y ago
  I don’t believe that’s what he said. He basically just pointed out that we should be careful not to speak of the Russian people as if they’re all innocent prisoners of this evil regime. It’s not a very accurate representation either. I’m quoting him: “we are talking about the nation that invaded another country, targeting civilians, raping and murdering”. Did Putin himself do all of this? No, it was a significant part of the Russian people that did. An even larger portion of the Russian people supported these crimes. They (the people referred to here) are not innocent. Edit: Just as a disclaimer, I do question the 70% stat. I don’t know where that comes from or if such a number can even be reliably acquired given the censorship that’s going on in Russia.
silasdavis 4y ago
Do you assume responsibility for your nation state?
- logical_ferry 4y ago
  My nation state exterminated Jews and other nationalities in WW2. I do feel a bit of responsibility and shame. Putin didn't appear in vacuum. He is a product of his society. Every Russian out there is to blame for this war.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - faebi 4y ago
    > Every Russian out there is to blame for this war. You might as well blame the poor for being poor. I understand every Russian who says it's not worth it to try.
    - logical_ferry 4y ago
      Well, they'll have an opportunity to rethink their views in Ukraine. Germany was a militaristic society once. They aren't anymore.
  - chupasaurus 4y ago
    > Putin didn't appear in vacuum. He is a product of his society. Every Russian out there is to blame for this war. I agree with first 2 sentences but have to correct: his societies were outlaws and KGB (legal outlaws) which is far from representing the whole population.
    - logical_ferry 4y ago
      > which is far from representing the whole population. They had parents, went to daycare, went to school, made life choices, went to university, worked a job... They didn't just materialize in KGB one day.
hef19898 4y ago
Sure, just stop showing compassion for the average Russian families worried about their sons because their authoritarian leader started a war he cannot win with an army that is at least allowed to tale out their frustration on civilians. Average citizens and grunts on different sides of a war have more in common with each other then they have with their respective leadership.
- varjag 4y ago
  The average Russian family has been supporting their authoritarian leader and the war he started.
  - logical_ferry 4y ago
    Exactly. Most of them are brainwashed. And it's just gonna get worse. Russia is out of the picture for decades to come.
    - tpmx 4y ago
      Some are brainwashed. Some are fully on board, without any need for brainwashing. Most are on the path of least resistance, not asking many questions as long as life is ~comfortable, or at least not getting dramatically worse. They kind of like the strongman. And there is always alcohol/drugs. Added: In general I agree with varjag's assessment. The average Russian family supports Putin.
      - logical_ferry 4y ago
        Summed up nicely. But now they will get some sobering up. I have little faith that Russian society is going to come out of this war any better. It's a cultural thing. Germany had to be razed to the ground by am external force and millions of Germans had to be killed for the society to ditch militarism. And Russia has nukes.
    - masijo 4y ago
      Yeah exactly. You're the only one inmune to propaganda, it's everyone else who is brainwashed. It obviously couldn't happen to you since you're smart, and "normal Russian people" aren't.
revlolz 4y ago
Who cares if they used the "correct" words? They were not joking and also not generalizing and condemning an entire segment of humanity. If you would call every German in the 40's a nazi or every Afghani in the early 2000's a terrorist, then it is you who is incorrect and untruthful.
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
Support for the war is at 70% - because 70% of Russians think Ukraine is mass-murdering the own citizens and Hitler has resurrected from his grave to run Ukraine himself. I don't think that's necessarily saying that Russians in general are any more or less awful than the rest of the global population - just that their information sources are terrible. As Ice-T remarked on gang wars... Don't hate the player, hate the game.
- vbezhenar 4y ago
  > 70% of Russians think Hitler has resurrected from his grave to run Ukraine himself. This mistake is understandable, when Zelensky's security wears totenkopf signs: https://metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/SEI_125395028-a285.jpg https://metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/SEI_125395028...
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Oh dear... you know that the USMC Scout/ Snipers aren't the resureccted SS, despite sharing the same initials?
    - vbezhenar 4y ago
      Average Russian is a simple guy. When he sees SS emblem who were known to kill his relatives 80 years ago, he does not give a benefit of doubt. He just recognises fascists and acts accordingly. I understand that civilised Europeans can see it as a little national colourite of a newfounded Ukrainian nation. Russians are not very inclusive in that regard.
      - luckylion 4y ago
        > He just recognises fascists and acts accordingly. So ... the average Russian is now going to kill Putin because his Wagner-buddy is a Neo-Nazi and so are (at least some of) his troops? I won't hold my breath, but good luck. https://en.respublica.lt/signs-of-neo-nazi-ideology-amongst-russian-mercenaries https://en.respublica.lt/signs-of-neo-nazi-ideology-amongst-...
mildmotive 4y ago
justsomehnguy 4y ago
> truth isn't always popular Yeah, as the 'freedom fries'. Remember that?
logical_ferry 4y ago
cm2187 4y ago
I know that collective gilt is en vogue right now, but that's a very narrow way to see a country which population hasn't had much of a say on public policies for centuries. The logical consequence of collective guilt is war crimes and genocides.
- logical_ferry 4y ago
  Perhaps if Russia society didn't just descend in apathy this whole mess could have been avoided. They took the easy way out, now it's time to pay. It was one thing when it was someone else doing the fighting, but now when it's your or your son's ass on the line it's a different ballgame, eh?
lp0_on_fire 4y ago
> and where currently support for the invasion hovers around 70% on average The Russian government / Putin isn't exactly known for tolerating political dissent. Is it really surprising that citizens say they support the state when asked by some random pollster, let alone someone from state-affiliated media?
dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago
> currently support for the invasion hovers around 70% on average I've never believed this number. Yes, I have many friends who have been brainwashed by the state media and they really believe that Ukrainians had been killing Russians in Ukraine so Putin had no choice, but most realize this is plan horseshit and just want to live in peace.
noobermin 4y ago
As someone else noted, that statistic may be inflated as it is illegal to speak out against the war there, but the 30% of russians are decent enough and deserve sympathy. Also, it's fine to wish the Russian soldiers actually fighting ill but even people with bad opinions deserve life, to some degree. Making many of them fight likely to their death is horrible and you shouldn't wish it on anyone.
- throwaway777845 4y ago
inglor_cz 4y ago
Looking at the absolute dearth of volunteers for the slaughter, the support for invasion seems to be rather lukewarm. Also, I read that doing polls in RU is now a challenge, because only a tiny minority of respondents won't hang up immediately when asked about something sensitive. So the numbers may be total garbage. I don't doubt that there are a lot of avid supporters, but I doubt the 70 per cent figure.

warinukraine 4y ago

Do you know that Russian citizens for the most part support this war?

JoeAltmaier 4y ago
By what independent survey? citation please
hadlock 4y ago
Russians supported the war when it was a largely professional army doing the invading. Support for war is typically thought to decline when your own family members get dragged into it and injured. Drafts have never been popular politically.
dgan 4y ago
i think we can conclude with high confidence that those paying ~1000€ for a plane ticket to flee before mobilization, aren't actually supporting it
- drakonka 4y ago
  I think the only thing we can conclude from that is that they're not willing to risk their own lives for it. It says nothing about their overall sentiment about the invasion itself.

noncoml 4y ago

“Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.” Please don’t get triggered by OP. He/she obviously means the ones that don’t support the war, have 0 influence about what the government does, and will be forced to go and die in a foreign country. Having empathy for the Russians citizens that are going to die fighting a war they don’t support is not mutually exclusive to having sympathy for the Ukrainians.

throwaway777845 4y ago

throwaway777845 4y ago

jacke 4y ago

It could go to the end only by two things: * With lots of corpses from one side. Bodies have penetrated with ATACMS Missile * 21th Gorbachyov (less probability, those who in charge are scarred as hell) No other options. The mental settings about society in Russia