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> Its obvious, if you think the Ukrainian military really represents the might of NATO you are kidding yourself. I think it is a representative fraction of NAT

> Its obvious, if you think the Ukrainian military really represents the might of NATO you are kidding yourself. I think it is a representative fraction of NATOs might. You also probably don't assume that LNR/DNR soldiers with mosins assisted by Russian special operation corps represent Russian Armed Forces might, do you? I am not even considering CSTO here. We have only fractions, but these fractions seem to be more or less on par. > Yes but Ukraine does not have the numbers Ukraine has overwhelming numbers, compared to LNR/DNR forces and Russian operation forces combined. > when Ukraine gets F16's and Ambrams tanks the difference will be even starker. And so Russia starts "partial mobilization" to match it, so will have to see how it plays out. > The 2003 invasion of Iraq is comparable. I don't know why some think it is comparable as it was yet another "bomb a backwards country" and run kind of war. Completely different goals, completely different methods, completely different repercussions. The state of Iraq army was a joke compared to modern Ukraines, less in size, extremely poorly equipped virtually no air defense, key Iraqi army officers were surrendering or even declaring that they won't oppose the invading force. The US had simply leveled the whole of Iraq, purged all the infrastructure and what they caputed was already reduced to a stone-age rubble, what a feat! And the US couldn't care less what happens next with all the people, the territories, with bandits and other paramilitary groups. They just hit and then they simply ran to a safe haven beyond the ocean. I was actually mostly keeping Iraq in mind when I said that all the previous modern conflicts were kinda meh. No one had fought an actual real modern army before, no one cared about infrastructure (and likely Russia won't be too, judging by recent Zelensky's speech), no one had to care about really controling, managing and restoring captured territories, didn't have to care about reinforcing own borders against retaliations, didn't matter how loyal or opposing the local population would be in a long term, and there was always an option to just run back to a far away safe haven, which they always ended up using. Zero real opposition from other key global players also seems kinda tengible. Completely and totally incomparable.

_kbh_ 4y ago
> I think it is a representative fraction of NATOs might. So we agree that a small fraction of NATOs power that represents likely less then most of each seperate country is capable of holding back and likely defeating Russia. > And so Russia starts "partial mobilization" to match it, so will have to see how it plays out. Russia started a mobilisation (there’s no word of partial in the actual decree) because they are losing. But I’m sure that a bunch of conscripts in T62s will fare better then the current professional soldiers in T72s and T80s who lost close to a couple months gains in less then a week. > I don't know why some think it is comparable as it was yet another "bomb a backwards country" and run kind of war. Completely different goals, completely different methods, completely different repercussions. Iraq was a modern army at the time with dug in defences, they where also half a world away requiring a heavy amount of logistics and planning. Ukraine is on the border of Russia. > The state of Iraq army was a joke compared to modern Ukraines, less in size, extremely poorly equipped virtually no air defense, key Iraqi army officers were surrendering or even declaring that they won't oppose the invading force. Doesn’t look like air defence is doing much for Russia in Ukraine either “what air defence doing” is literally a recent meme that mocks Russias poor air defence. > The US had simply leveled the whole of Iraq, purged all the infrastructure and what they caputed was already reduced to a stone-age rubble, what a feat! This is exactly what Russia does except with added rape and torture of civilians And without the military progress either. > And the US couldn't care less what happens next with all the people, the territories, with bandits and other paramilitary groups. They just hit and then they simply ran to a safe haven beyond the ocean. I don’t think that the people digging mass graves for civilians care what’s happening to them either. > No one had fought an actual real modern army before, no one cared about infrastructure (and likely Russia won't be too, judging by recent Zelensky's speech) Russia has been bombing infrastructure and civilian targets from day 1, they don’t care about infrastructure either. > Completely and totally incomparable. Id still say it’s pretty comparable given it’s distance. But I can understand why others wouldn’t. It kinda makes Russias army look pathetic, but then again that’s what they are.
- foverzar 4y ago
  You are rather misinformed on specifics and nuances, thus building your arguments on quite a lot of false assumptions, but at this point I'm kinda lazy to address multiple points at the same time. Consider that quite a lot of what you hear is a wartime propaganda and everyone is lying. But, one could treat this as kind of a poker game and infer quite a lot from it: e.g. in his last speech Zelensky accused Russia of attacking infrastructure. But why would he do that if that was supposedly true from day 1? Why the sudden change of rhetoric on what is supposed to be non-news and yet-another-day-of-the-same-thing? Maybe cuz this time Russians had actually started doing this on purpose, rather than as random collateral? Same for all the "evil Russians rape and torture" - Zelensky ended up firing the official who was pushing this narrative. Why? Maybe cuz their latest ramblings became so incoherent, it might have caused suspicion and could have hurt the public image? > Id still say it’s pretty comparable given it’s distance. Distance to what? IMO, the most comparable thing to Iraq would be Russian campaign in Syria.
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    > Same for all the "evil Russians rape and torture" - Zelensky ended up firing the official who was pushing this narrative. Why? Maybe cuz their latest ramblings became so incoherent, it might have caused suspicion and could have hurt the public image? Perfect timing, you can now read the independent UN report that says Russian troops raped and tortured children in Ukraine. https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/09/update-chair-independent-international-commission-inquiry-ukraine-51st-session https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/09/update-chair-ind... ill quote it for you. "The Commission has documented cases in which children have been raped, tortured, and unlawfully confined. Children have also been killed and injured in indiscriminate attacks with explosive weapons. The exposure to repeated explosions, crimes, forced displacement and separation from family members deeply affected their well-being and mental health.". > Distance to what? IMO, the most comparable thing to Iraq would be Russian campaign in Syria. Its distance from the countries fighting the actual war, in Iraq countries where fighting a war thousands of kilometres way from them, in Ukraine Russia is fighting on its doorstep and still failing.
    - 4y ago

_kbh_ 4y ago

> I think it is a representative fraction of NATOs might. So we agree that a small fraction of NATOs power that represents likely less then most of each seperate country is capable of holding back and likely defeating Russia. > And so Russia starts "partial mobilization" to match it, so will have to see how it plays out. Russia started a mobilisation (there’s no word of partial in the actual decree) because they are losing. But I’m sure that a bunch of conscripts in T62s will fare better then the current professional soldiers in T72s and T80s who lost close to a couple months gains in less then a week. > I don't know why some think it is comparable as it was yet another "bomb a backwards country" and run kind of war. Completely different goals, completely different methods, completely different repercussions. Iraq was a modern army at the time with dug in defences, they where also half a world away requiring a heavy amount of logistics and planning. Ukraine is on the border of Russia. > The state of Iraq army was a joke compared to modern Ukraines, less in size, extremely poorly equipped virtually no air defense, key Iraqi army officers were surrendering or even declaring that they won't oppose the invading force. Doesn’t look like air defence is doing much for Russia in Ukraine either “what air defence doing” is literally a recent meme that mocks Russias poor air defence. > The US had simply leveled the whole of Iraq, purged all the infrastructure and what they caputed was already reduced to a stone-age rubble, what a feat! This is exactly what Russia does except with added rape and torture of civilians And without the military progress either. > And the US couldn't care less what happens next with all the people, the territories, with bandits and other paramilitary groups. They just hit and then they simply ran to a safe haven beyond the ocean. I don’t think that the people digging mass graves for civilians care what’s happening to them either. > No one had fought an actual real modern army before, no one cared about infrastructure (and likely Russia won't be too, judging by recent Zelensky's speech) Russia has been bombing infrastructure and civilian targets from day 1, they don’t care about infrastructure either. > Completely and totally incomparable. Id still say it’s pretty comparable given it’s distance. But I can understand why others wouldn’t. It kinda makes Russias army look pathetic, but then again that’s what they are.

foverzar 4y ago
You are rather misinformed on specifics and nuances, thus building your arguments on quite a lot of false assumptions, but at this point I'm kinda lazy to address multiple points at the same time. Consider that quite a lot of what you hear is a wartime propaganda and everyone is lying. But, one could treat this as kind of a poker game and infer quite a lot from it: e.g. in his last speech Zelensky accused Russia of attacking infrastructure. But why would he do that if that was supposedly true from day 1? Why the sudden change of rhetoric on what is supposed to be non-news and yet-another-day-of-the-same-thing? Maybe cuz this time Russians had actually started doing this on purpose, rather than as random collateral? Same for all the "evil Russians rape and torture" - Zelensky ended up firing the official who was pushing this narrative. Why? Maybe cuz their latest ramblings became so incoherent, it might have caused suspicion and could have hurt the public image? > Id still say it’s pretty comparable given it’s distance. Distance to what? IMO, the most comparable thing to Iraq would be Russian campaign in Syria.
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > Same for all the "evil Russians rape and torture" - Zelensky ended up firing the official who was pushing this narrative. Why? Maybe cuz their latest ramblings became so incoherent, it might have caused suspicion and could have hurt the public image? Perfect timing, you can now read the independent UN report that says Russian troops raped and tortured children in Ukraine. https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/09/update-chair-independent-international-commission-inquiry-ukraine-51st-session https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/09/update-chair-ind... ill quote it for you. "The Commission has documented cases in which children have been raped, tortured, and unlawfully confined. Children have also been killed and injured in indiscriminate attacks with explosive weapons. The exposure to repeated explosions, crimes, forced displacement and separation from family members deeply affected their well-being and mental health.". > Distance to what? IMO, the most comparable thing to Iraq would be Russian campaign in Syria. Its distance from the countries fighting the actual war, in Iraq countries where fighting a war thousands of kilometres way from them, in Ukraine Russia is fighting on its doorstep and still failing.
  - 4y ago