8 ms·

Can we get over the love for Western Indologists who have, time and again, deliberately mistranslated our Dharmic scriptures? In particular: Wendy Doniger, She

Can we get over the love for Western Indologists who have, time and again, deliberately mistranslated our Dharmic scriptures? In particular: Wendy Doniger, Sheldon Pollock and their ilk. An example [1] and the complete talk [2] [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2ke7Higm-Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2ke7Higm-Y [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olQlPZuEWLY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olQlPZuEWLY

Issaclabs 4y ago
Her translations are ignorant at best and malicious at worst. Not a serious academic https://swarajyamag.com/longform/a-critique-of-wendy-donigers-portrayal-of-hinduism https://swarajyamag.com/longform/a-critique-of-wendy-doniger...
- KrishnaShripad 4y ago
  Exactly.
- dominotw 4y ago
  I went to one of her talks at my yoga studio here in chicago. I googled her later to find out how much of a controversial figure she was.
unmole 4y ago
I don't have any sympathy for Wendy Doniger but Rajiv Malhotra is hardly the beacon of truth. The man spins utterly deranged conspiracy theories: https://www.reddit.com/r/badlinguistics/comments/2t8ze3/a_few_assholes_trying_to_subvert_genuine_research/ https://www.reddit.com/r/badlinguistics/comments/2t8ze3/a_fe...
- KrishnaShripad 4y ago
  There is no conspiracy theory in here. Like let me break apart the topic for the lazy ones. > "FeTNA is a US-based Tamil diaspora organization that finances Tamil chair in Berkeley and acted as a vehicle for ethno-political separatism, with links to the Tamil Tigers. It supports the Christianization of Tamil culture and offers a doorway into Indian politics for right-wing evangelican American politicians and western geo-political strategists." > His sources for these claims? His ass. WTF? FeTNA has advocated for LTTE (Tamil Tigers) many times. It is openly pro-LTTE. You can check the FeTNA resolution here: http://www.sangam.org/TVOICE/tvFall95.htm#ftna http://www.sangam.org/TVOICE/tvFall95.htm#ftna Let me quote some lines from the resolution: 1. "D. The Sri Lankan governments propaganda that the Tamil freedom fighters (LTTE) unilaterally broke the peace process is totally and completely false." 2. "We say that the Tamil people have the right to determine their own future. If any attempt is made to impose an arbitrary political settlement on the Tamil people through military means, the LTTE will resist it." Stopped reading after this point. His very first quote that FeTNA has no association with LTTE is a big lie. Another article on FeTNA [3]: "Also, the coordinator was against converting the convention into yet another pro-LTTE forum where India bashing would go on unabated as in the past conventions and put his foot down that irritated the trio. Last year, the Government of India abruptly cancelled the Indian visa of Dr. Muthuvel Chelliah, a naturalized US citizen for his continuous anti-India tirade and support to banned anti-Indian organizations that perpetrate violence and terrorism. He has filed a case against the Home Ministry in the High Court of Madras pleading that his Indian visa be restored so that he can meet his aged mother in Tamil Nadu. Support to Tamil Eelam and LTTE have been the undeclared agenda of Fetna in the past and member associations who do not subscribe to its views were either reprimanded or removed. Various pro-Eelam leaders such as New York based Rudra Kumaran, "Prime Minister" of Transnational Government of Tamil Eelam (TGTE), a government in exile of Tamil Eelams; Dr Elyn Shandler, a fiery pro-LTTE speaker and Jewish-American rabble rouser who was also denied Indian visa for her anti-India rhetoric and Professor Francis Boyle who advocates Tamil Eelam were regular speakers every year at Fetna annual conventions and prime time were allotted to their fiery speeches much against the wishes of Indian Tamils. This year the coordinator Balagan wanted to downplay the pro-LTTE image of Fetna that did not go well with the pro-Eelam supporters who were gunning for his head. Finally Balagan secured majority support and those opposed him were forced to quit. Vice President Dr Dhandapani Kuppuswamy was chosen as interim president and elections were called for to choose new set of office bearers." And as far as forced conversions to Christianity, it is extremely rampant in Tamil Nadu [1]. I am from the neighboring state of Telangana which is equally affected by this malaise [2]. [1]: https://www.firstpost.com/politics/christian-conversion-mafia-has-never-been-so-active-in-tamil-nadu-heres-the-reason-why-10359461.html https://www.firstpost.com/politics/christian-conversion-mafi... [2]: https://www.opindia.com/2022/05/tamil-nadu-hindu-woman-tries-to-set-herself-on-fire-forced-conversion-attempt/ https://www.opindia.com/2022/05/tamil-nadu-hindu-woman-tries... [3]: https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Fetna+President+Pazhani+Sundaram+quits+amidst+chaos.-a0279860120 https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Fetna+President+Pazhani+Sunda...
  - dang 4y ago
    Your account has swerved back towards using HN primarily for political/ideological/nationalistic/religious battle. We ban accounts that do this because it's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. If you keep doing this, we're going to have to ban you again—not because we disagree with your positions (I don't know what they are, and it doesn't matte) but because you're breaking the intended use of the site. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
kranner 4y ago
Do you have an example of a specific deliberate mistranslation by, let’s say, Wendy Doniger?
- rajup 4y ago
  This link lays out a few (from a comment further below): https://swarajyamag.com/longform/a-critique-of-wendy-donigers-portrayal-of-hinduism https://swarajyamag.com/longform/a-critique-of-wendy-doniger...
  - kranner 4y ago
    No evidence is presented for the purported mistranslations (of pretty subjective things to start with) as deliberate. You’d have to show that Wendy Doniger knew what e.g. the painting actually represented, for a fact, and still published information differing from this position in some way. It’s possible to be sincere but misinformed.
    - drieddust 4y ago
    - rajup 4y ago
      Maybe she was sincere and misinformed but the article points out how this might be misinformed, I don’t see any disagreement?
- KrishnaShripad 4y ago
  Sure. You can check the article here with translations of few stanzas from Shatapatha Brahamana: https://indiafacts.org/the-world-of-wendy-donigers-translations/ https://indiafacts.org/the-world-of-wendy-donigers-translati... Even the translation by J. Eggeling is not completely accurate because Sanskrit has a lot of words that are non-translatables because of inherent weakness of English as a language (which includes limited vocabulary to describe Sanskrit words accurately) [1]. Irrespective of Eggeling's translation not being completely accurate, it atleast was a decent attempt. She references him but totally twists the translations to make it sexualized in a lot of places. The actual scripture is not at all depicting what is translated by her in the end. [1]: To understand why English is not accurate enough to describe Sanskrit vocabulary, this video will shed complete light: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7XYCNbLtPQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7XYCNbLtPQ
dartharva 4y ago
You should also provide links to better or more "authentic" translations then, because any curious individual will find these first upon rudimentary searching.
- KrishnaShripad 4y ago
  You are right that links to better translations are what I should link to. However, even here, you should be mindful that translations of Dharmic scriptures are tied to Philosophical schools of thought (or Schools of Vedanta). So if you are asking me to give you a link I would have to give you links to Tattvavada (which is the school of Vedanta I follow). However, there are translations provided by Advaita and Vishishtadvaita (and other sub-schools) that differ slightly in their interpretations and I'll be doing disservice to them by not linking their work too. So eventually you will end up with having to learn under a learned Guru anyways. And you won't find Gurus who are well versed in their concepts in the Western academia at the very least. You will have to travel to India and explore the various Mathas (study centers) and figure out which Philosophy appeals to you. This is purely because Sanatan Dharma is not Dogmatic like Western Religions. Here you have the choice to choose your path. You have Monism in the form of Shankara's Advaita, Qualified Monism of Ramanuja's Vishshitadvaita to Dualism of Madhva's Tattvavada. All 3 schools (these are primary schools with many sub-schools with subtle differences from the main school they branch out from) differ in their interpretations significantly when it comes to answering few broad philosophical questions: 1. Who am I? Do I really exist or am I an illusion? 2. What is this Creation? Is this real or an illusion? 3. What is Time? 4. Is there a Creator? Or is there none? 5. If there is a Creator then what is the relationship between me and the Creator? 6. Are we many individual Aatmas with each having separate, distinct reality or one Aatma living in an illusion that it is separate, distinct reality? All these Philosophical questions derive from the Vedic scriptures viz: Vedas, Upanishads, Brahma Sutras, Bhagavad Gita, Mahabharata, Ramayana and the Puranas. The Philosophical Schools (or schools of Vedanta) have spent thousands of years researching on these fundamental Philosophical questions. To point a link to an authentic translation is hence a very difficult task: for one, there are very few and far between. Two: it is a mammoth undertaking to translate the entire corpus of literature that has accumulated in Sanskrit over the past thousands of years. Three: most of the English translations from Indian Indologists exist only for one school: Advaita. Other schools haven't been translated yet (though for Tattvavada there is translation now available in the form of 37 Sarvamoola Granthas of Madhvacharya — the founder of the Tattvavada school of Vedanta). The problem also is that Sanskrit has a lot of "non-translatable" words. There is no such "authentic" translation as when you "translate" you will have to find meanings that fit the language you are translating into which eventually leads to dumbing down the translation as the vocabulary is not sufficient to describe the Sanskrit word. For example, most Western Indologists wrongly translate Aatma as "Soul". However, what is Soul exactly? It has Religious connotations attributed and inline with Abrahamic interpretations of what a Soul is which is not what Aatma is in Sanatan Dharma. What is Dharma in English? Most Western Indologists incorrectly translate it as "Religion" (or some use the slightly better term "Righteousness"). But Dharma is not Religion at all. It is "Eternal Truth" (hence is called Sanatan Dharma) that is based on concepts of "Righteousness" and "Duties" tightly interwoven into the "Karmic cycle". It is not Dogmatic in any way, shape or form. There are no "Commandments". What is Karma in English? "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction"? Nope. That is just rudimentary translation of what Karma is. Because in this translation, there is an expectation that the Karmic result would happen immediately or within a short period of time. However, in Sanatan Dharma, Karma spans not just one lifetime but infinite lifetimes. The Karmic cycle of the Aatma started from the very beginnings of Creation (through the breaking of the Hiranyagarbha roughly translated as "Golden womb" or Big Bang in modern parlance). So when Sanatan Dharma talks of Karma it talks in terms of Cosmic timescale which runs in trillions of years. The Age of Brahma (who is the one who ushers in the Creation on the command of God – Lord Vishnu), according to Sanatan Dharma, is 311 trillion years (this is the lifetime of birth and death of Creation itself, before it restarts all over again (Big Crunch followed by Big Bang), with Lokas (Multiverses) within it). The Karmic cycle starts at the very beginning of Creation itself and ends with the end of Creation to restart again in a cyclical manner. So how do I fit all this in a 1:1 mapping between Karma and an English equivalent? There is no such word in English which defines Karma in its entirety. How do you translate Prāṇa in English? "Life force" or "Vital principle". Both don't sufficiently describe Prāṇa as Prāṇa is closely tied to Vāyu (also called Mukhya Prāṇa or the controller of the life force). Without explaining Vāyu you cannot explain Prāṇa as Vāyu is the controller and the cause.
dang 4y ago
Please don't take HN threads into religious or nationalistic flamewar, or any kind of flamewar. If you want to have a curious conversation about translation and scholarship—great. But importing pre-existing flamewar talking points into HN threads is definitely not that, and is against the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Needless to say, I have no view on the relative accuracy of Mahabharata translations. But I know HN threads and I know internet flamebait when I see it. No more of this, please. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32927390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32927390 also.
- aicaffeinelife 4y ago
  I think you’re missing the point here. It’s a flame war if and only if there are two perspectives and it comes down to a matter of choice (e.g Vim vs EMacs). The majority of the commenters here are pointing out to the fact that some Western academics either deliberately or ignorantly mistranslate Sanskrit and to a person who has no background in this stuff often form an incorrect or incomplete picture which then leads to a positive/negative bias in their minds.
  - dang 4y ago
    It's a flamewar comment when a commenter uses denunciatory tropes and ready-to-go polemical links on a classic flamewar topic. When an account has a history of prosecuting nationalistic and religious flamewar, that goes double. Sometimes the account is even one in a sequence of accounts that we've had to ban for this in the past. I'm not asking anyone to submit to colonial dogmas here—just to abide by the site guidelines when making their substantive points. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - aicaffeinelife 4y ago
      That sounds fair. I also agree about keeping HN for hackers and not politics.
- 4y ago
uptownfunk 4y ago
I don't get why you're getting the hate here. This is a known issue, and I don't see how censoring you from discussing it is going to help. You are not being disrespectful and are providing sources and facts to back you up. Meanwhile reddit like "funny" comments are left here but having a debate on mistranslation by western scholarship is some how deemed to be a flamewar. This is a disappointing direction to see HN going down.
- KrishnaShripad 4y ago
  I'm not even going to argue with Dang as I don't want to get banned over this. I'm used to this bias in all social platforms. It's not new to me. Cancel culture is the norm. If you are a square peg in a round hole you will be cast out. Unfortunate reality. Anyways I am happy atleast I have some support here from others who see it for what it is.
  - uptownfunk 4y ago
    We used to be able to have data driven civil conversations. Well folks, getting to the truth isn’t easy or comfortable and sometimes feelings will get hurt. But is that a reason to shy away from the truth?
    - HexDecOctBin 4y ago
      > We used to be able to have data driven civil conversations. That "we" was a very exclusive club by design, and now that people outside it are trying to butt in, it is only natural that doors would be slammed in their face. The idea that the club was open to all was a fiction, told in the knowledge that only "we" had a voice to speak with anyways.
- deodar 4y ago
  Most westerners have a subconscious and unacknowledged bias against Hindus. This shows up everywhere. I don't blame them for it, it's a product of decades of misinformation and misunderstanding. In internet forums, criticizing or mocking Hindus is perfectly acceptable but any comments trying to present Hindu culture in a fair light get quickly classified as nationalistic or flamebait. The canonical example being r/India. We're still years away from where this bias is seen and acknowledged for what it is. For what is worth, I saw nothing in the original parent comment to classify it as flamebait. It was a perfectly valid opinion about how Hindu texts have been misrepresented by Western scholars. Thanks Krishna for your comment, I for one learned something from it.

Issaclabs 4y ago

Her translations are ignorant at best and malicious at worst. Not a serious academic https://swarajyamag.com/longform/a-critique-of-wendy-donigers-portrayal-of-hinduism https://swarajyamag.com/longform/a-critique-of-wendy-doniger...

KrishnaShripad 4y ago
Exactly.
dominotw 4y ago
I went to one of her talks at my yoga studio here in chicago. I googled her later to find out how much of a controversial figure she was.

unmole 4y ago

I don't have any sympathy for Wendy Doniger but Rajiv Malhotra is hardly the beacon of truth. The man spins utterly deranged conspiracy theories: https://www.reddit.com/r/badlinguistics/comments/2t8ze3/a_few_assholes_trying_to_subvert_genuine_research/ https://www.reddit.com/r/badlinguistics/comments/2t8ze3/a_fe...

KrishnaShripad 4y ago
There is no conspiracy theory in here. Like let me break apart the topic for the lazy ones. > "FeTNA is a US-based Tamil diaspora organization that finances Tamil chair in Berkeley and acted as a vehicle for ethno-political separatism, with links to the Tamil Tigers. It supports the Christianization of Tamil culture and offers a doorway into Indian politics for right-wing evangelican American politicians and western geo-political strategists." > His sources for these claims? His ass. WTF? FeTNA has advocated for LTTE (Tamil Tigers) many times. It is openly pro-LTTE. You can check the FeTNA resolution here: http://www.sangam.org/TVOICE/tvFall95.htm#ftna http://www.sangam.org/TVOICE/tvFall95.htm#ftna Let me quote some lines from the resolution: 1. "D. The Sri Lankan governments propaganda that the Tamil freedom fighters (LTTE) unilaterally broke the peace process is totally and completely false." 2. "We say that the Tamil people have the right to determine their own future. If any attempt is made to impose an arbitrary political settlement on the Tamil people through military means, the LTTE will resist it." Stopped reading after this point. His very first quote that FeTNA has no association with LTTE is a big lie. Another article on FeTNA [3]: "Also, the coordinator was against converting the convention into yet another pro-LTTE forum where India bashing would go on unabated as in the past conventions and put his foot down that irritated the trio. Last year, the Government of India abruptly cancelled the Indian visa of Dr. Muthuvel Chelliah, a naturalized US citizen for his continuous anti-India tirade and support to banned anti-Indian organizations that perpetrate violence and terrorism. He has filed a case against the Home Ministry in the High Court of Madras pleading that his Indian visa be restored so that he can meet his aged mother in Tamil Nadu. Support to Tamil Eelam and LTTE have been the undeclared agenda of Fetna in the past and member associations who do not subscribe to its views were either reprimanded or removed. Various pro-Eelam leaders such as New York based Rudra Kumaran, "Prime Minister" of Transnational Government of Tamil Eelam (TGTE), a government in exile of Tamil Eelams; Dr Elyn Shandler, a fiery pro-LTTE speaker and Jewish-American rabble rouser who was also denied Indian visa for her anti-India rhetoric and Professor Francis Boyle who advocates Tamil Eelam were regular speakers every year at Fetna annual conventions and prime time were allotted to their fiery speeches much against the wishes of Indian Tamils. This year the coordinator Balagan wanted to downplay the pro-LTTE image of Fetna that did not go well with the pro-Eelam supporters who were gunning for his head. Finally Balagan secured majority support and those opposed him were forced to quit. Vice President Dr Dhandapani Kuppuswamy was chosen as interim president and elections were called for to choose new set of office bearers." And as far as forced conversions to Christianity, it is extremely rampant in Tamil Nadu [1]. I am from the neighboring state of Telangana which is equally affected by this malaise [2]. [1]: https://www.firstpost.com/politics/christian-conversion-mafia-has-never-been-so-active-in-tamil-nadu-heres-the-reason-why-10359461.html https://www.firstpost.com/politics/christian-conversion-mafi... [2]: https://www.opindia.com/2022/05/tamil-nadu-hindu-woman-tries-to-set-herself-on-fire-forced-conversion-attempt/ https://www.opindia.com/2022/05/tamil-nadu-hindu-woman-tries... [3]: https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Fetna+President+Pazhani+Sundaram+quits+amidst+chaos.-a0279860120 https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Fetna+President+Pazhani+Sunda...
- dang 4y ago
  Your account has swerved back towards using HN primarily for political/ideological/nationalistic/religious battle. We ban accounts that do this because it's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. If you keep doing this, we're going to have to ban you again—not because we disagree with your positions (I don't know what they are, and it doesn't matte) but because you're breaking the intended use of the site. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

kranner 4y ago

Do you have an example of a specific deliberate mistranslation by, let’s say, Wendy Doniger?

rajup 4y ago
This link lays out a few (from a comment further below): https://swarajyamag.com/longform/a-critique-of-wendy-donigers-portrayal-of-hinduism https://swarajyamag.com/longform/a-critique-of-wendy-doniger...
- kranner 4y ago
  No evidence is presented for the purported mistranslations (of pretty subjective things to start with) as deliberate. You’d have to show that Wendy Doniger knew what e.g. the painting actually represented, for a fact, and still published information differing from this position in some way. It’s possible to be sincere but misinformed.
  - drieddust 4y ago
  - rajup 4y ago
    Maybe she was sincere and misinformed but the article points out how this might be misinformed, I don’t see any disagreement?
KrishnaShripad 4y ago
Sure. You can check the article here with translations of few stanzas from Shatapatha Brahamana: https://indiafacts.org/the-world-of-wendy-donigers-translations/ https://indiafacts.org/the-world-of-wendy-donigers-translati... Even the translation by J. Eggeling is not completely accurate because Sanskrit has a lot of words that are non-translatables because of inherent weakness of English as a language (which includes limited vocabulary to describe Sanskrit words accurately) [1]. Irrespective of Eggeling's translation not being completely accurate, it atleast was a decent attempt. She references him but totally twists the translations to make it sexualized in a lot of places. The actual scripture is not at all depicting what is translated by her in the end. [1]: To understand why English is not accurate enough to describe Sanskrit vocabulary, this video will shed complete light: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7XYCNbLtPQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7XYCNbLtPQ

dartharva 4y ago

You should also provide links to better or more "authentic" translations then, because any curious individual will find these first upon rudimentary searching.

KrishnaShripad 4y ago
You are right that links to better translations are what I should link to. However, even here, you should be mindful that translations of Dharmic scriptures are tied to Philosophical schools of thought (or Schools of Vedanta). So if you are asking me to give you a link I would have to give you links to Tattvavada (which is the school of Vedanta I follow). However, there are translations provided by Advaita and Vishishtadvaita (and other sub-schools) that differ slightly in their interpretations and I'll be doing disservice to them by not linking their work too. So eventually you will end up with having to learn under a learned Guru anyways. And you won't find Gurus who are well versed in their concepts in the Western academia at the very least. You will have to travel to India and explore the various Mathas (study centers) and figure out which Philosophy appeals to you. This is purely because Sanatan Dharma is not Dogmatic like Western Religions. Here you have the choice to choose your path. You have Monism in the form of Shankara's Advaita, Qualified Monism of Ramanuja's Vishshitadvaita to Dualism of Madhva's Tattvavada. All 3 schools (these are primary schools with many sub-schools with subtle differences from the main school they branch out from) differ in their interpretations significantly when it comes to answering few broad philosophical questions: 1. Who am I? Do I really exist or am I an illusion? 2. What is this Creation? Is this real or an illusion? 3. What is Time? 4. Is there a Creator? Or is there none? 5. If there is a Creator then what is the relationship between me and the Creator? 6. Are we many individual Aatmas with each having separate, distinct reality or one Aatma living in an illusion that it is separate, distinct reality? All these Philosophical questions derive from the Vedic scriptures viz: Vedas, Upanishads, Brahma Sutras, Bhagavad Gita, Mahabharata, Ramayana and the Puranas. The Philosophical Schools (or schools of Vedanta) have spent thousands of years researching on these fundamental Philosophical questions. To point a link to an authentic translation is hence a very difficult task: for one, there are very few and far between. Two: it is a mammoth undertaking to translate the entire corpus of literature that has accumulated in Sanskrit over the past thousands of years. Three: most of the English translations from Indian Indologists exist only for one school: Advaita. Other schools haven't been translated yet (though for Tattvavada there is translation now available in the form of 37 Sarvamoola Granthas of Madhvacharya — the founder of the Tattvavada school of Vedanta). The problem also is that Sanskrit has a lot of "non-translatable" words. There is no such "authentic" translation as when you "translate" you will have to find meanings that fit the language you are translating into which eventually leads to dumbing down the translation as the vocabulary is not sufficient to describe the Sanskrit word. For example, most Western Indologists wrongly translate Aatma as "Soul". However, what is Soul exactly? It has Religious connotations attributed and inline with Abrahamic interpretations of what a Soul is which is not what Aatma is in Sanatan Dharma. What is Dharma in English? Most Western Indologists incorrectly translate it as "Religion" (or some use the slightly better term "Righteousness"). But Dharma is not Religion at all. It is "Eternal Truth" (hence is called Sanatan Dharma) that is based on concepts of "Righteousness" and "Duties" tightly interwoven into the "Karmic cycle". It is not Dogmatic in any way, shape or form. There are no "Commandments". What is Karma in English? "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction"? Nope. That is just rudimentary translation of what Karma is. Because in this translation, there is an expectation that the Karmic result would happen immediately or within a short period of time. However, in Sanatan Dharma, Karma spans not just one lifetime but infinite lifetimes. The Karmic cycle of the Aatma started from the very beginnings of Creation (through the breaking of the Hiranyagarbha roughly translated as "Golden womb" or Big Bang in modern parlance). So when Sanatan Dharma talks of Karma it talks in terms of Cosmic timescale which runs in trillions of years. The Age of Brahma (who is the one who ushers in the Creation on the command of God – Lord Vishnu), according to Sanatan Dharma, is 311 trillion years (this is the lifetime of birth and death of Creation itself, before it restarts all over again (Big Crunch followed by Big Bang), with Lokas (Multiverses) within it). The Karmic cycle starts at the very beginning of Creation itself and ends with the end of Creation to restart again in a cyclical manner. So how do I fit all this in a 1:1 mapping between Karma and an English equivalent? There is no such word in English which defines Karma in its entirety. How do you translate Prāṇa in English? "Life force" or "Vital principle". Both don't sufficiently describe Prāṇa as Prāṇa is closely tied to Vāyu (also called Mukhya Prāṇa or the controller of the life force). Without explaining Vāyu you cannot explain Prāṇa as Vāyu is the controller and the cause.

dang 4y ago

Please don't take HN threads into religious or nationalistic flamewar, or any kind of flamewar. If you want to have a curious conversation about translation and scholarship—great. But importing pre-existing flamewar talking points into HN threads is definitely not that, and is against the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Needless to say, I have no view on the relative accuracy of Mahabharata translations. But I know HN threads and I know internet flamebait when I see it. No more of this, please. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32927390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32927390 also.

aicaffeinelife 4y ago
I think you’re missing the point here. It’s a flame war if and only if there are two perspectives and it comes down to a matter of choice (e.g Vim vs EMacs). The majority of the commenters here are pointing out to the fact that some Western academics either deliberately or ignorantly mistranslate Sanskrit and to a person who has no background in this stuff often form an incorrect or incomplete picture which then leads to a positive/negative bias in their minds.
- dang 4y ago
  It's a flamewar comment when a commenter uses denunciatory tropes and ready-to-go polemical links on a classic flamewar topic. When an account has a history of prosecuting nationalistic and religious flamewar, that goes double. Sometimes the account is even one in a sequence of accounts that we've had to ban for this in the past. I'm not asking anyone to submit to colonial dogmas here—just to abide by the site guidelines when making their substantive points. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - aicaffeinelife 4y ago
    That sounds fair. I also agree about keeping HN for hackers and not politics.
4y ago

uptownfunk 4y ago

I don't get why you're getting the hate here. This is a known issue, and I don't see how censoring you from discussing it is going to help. You are not being disrespectful and are providing sources and facts to back you up. Meanwhile reddit like "funny" comments are left here but having a debate on mistranslation by western scholarship is some how deemed to be a flamewar. This is a disappointing direction to see HN going down.

KrishnaShripad 4y ago
I'm not even going to argue with Dang as I don't want to get banned over this. I'm used to this bias in all social platforms. It's not new to me. Cancel culture is the norm. If you are a square peg in a round hole you will be cast out. Unfortunate reality. Anyways I am happy atleast I have some support here from others who see it for what it is.
- uptownfunk 4y ago
  We used to be able to have data driven civil conversations. Well folks, getting to the truth isn’t easy or comfortable and sometimes feelings will get hurt. But is that a reason to shy away from the truth?
  - HexDecOctBin 4y ago
    > We used to be able to have data driven civil conversations. That "we" was a very exclusive club by design, and now that people outside it are trying to butt in, it is only natural that doors would be slammed in their face. The idea that the club was open to all was a fiction, told in the knowledge that only "we" had a voice to speak with anyways.
deodar 4y ago
Most westerners have a subconscious and unacknowledged bias against Hindus. This shows up everywhere. I don't blame them for it, it's a product of decades of misinformation and misunderstanding. In internet forums, criticizing or mocking Hindus is perfectly acceptable but any comments trying to present Hindu culture in a fair light get quickly classified as nationalistic or flamebait. The canonical example being r/India. We're still years away from where this bias is seen and acknowledged for what it is. For what is worth, I saw nothing in the original parent comment to classify it as flamebait. It was a perfectly valid opinion about how Hindu texts have been misrepresented by Western scholars. Thanks Krishna for your comment, I for one learned something from it.