14 ms·

Twitch finally takes action against gambling

191 points by thm 4y ago

ThrowawayTestr 4y ago
Interesting that sports betting is allowed.
- rockostrich 4y ago
  Not really. Online sports betting is legal in like 20 states at this point and I think most others have some kind of legislation pending or proposed to make it legal soon.
- mudrockbestgirl 4y ago
  Isn't that regulated? > Twitch said it will bar all gambling content on websites that aren’t regulated by U.S. gambling restrictions
  - elfatizer 4y ago
    31 states have legal channels for retail/online sports betting. If DraftKings can officially sponsor the NFL, low chance it will be knocked down by Twitch. I think this line mostly refers to the U.S. because there are large streamers who stream gambling sites from Canada or elsewhere due to lighter local restrictions.
  - philippejara 4y ago
    Gambling is a problem regardless of being regulated, if anything else being regulated only makes it easier for the audience to get addicted to it, random viewer #2345 from the US isn't gonna gamble on some dingy underground casino if there's an openly available one to do it in.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jgrowl 4y ago
  I WONDER WHY https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-08/-thursday-night-football-on-amazon-why-you-need-prime-not-tv-to-watch-games https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-08/-thursday...
mudrockbestgirl 4y ago
Now I just wish that YouTube would remove all "influencers" trying to sell you crypto/stocks/etc. But then TikTok is still left...
- devoutsalsa 4y ago
  - tmpz22 4y ago
    They’re actually hilarious. I mostly watch just to keep up to date with new crypto technologies. I’ve already tripled my money (50USD to 150USD) in 15 days because I saw someone do a video on lolcrypto.app XD /s
- cwkoss 4y ago
  You wont see crypto influencers on Tiktok if you don't engage with the videos. A couple "not interested"s and I haven't seen one in months.
- smaryjerry 4y ago
  How do you differentiate crypto from any other video game currency. You can buy in game currencies for real money and literally gamble with it inside a game with literally slots or loot boxes or whatever, then trade it to others as well, in exchange for real money. Every game is different though. I’m just struggling to find the difference between crypto and any other digital in a video game in regards to gambling. Both are code driven and if anything in game gambling seems worse because rather than paying a market value where everyone has the same risk, you are paying the game creator for loot boxes or info and currency which they can print infinitely. Of course if they did print too much of an item or currency it would crash their in game market and destroy the rarity of those items. Anyways it seems like if Twitch is going after crypto gambling websites they need to go after in game gambling as well.
  - lovich 4y ago
    > How do you differentiate crypto from any other video game currency. Being able to use it literally anywhere but that game springs to mind as an easy check. If crypto is the same as game currency doesn’t that invalidate the vast majority of claims about the benefits of crypto?
sneak 4y ago
Censorship of video streams is the wrong place for this, even if you think gambling is bad. Twitch isn’t taking action against gambling. It’s censoring streamers. Publishing video of oneself gambling is very very different than accepting wagers. They are taking action against the publishing of videos of performative gamblers, not against gambling. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
- qsort 4y ago
  A platform whose audience is mostly teenagers is the wrong place to ban streamers actively promoting gambling? How is that even remotely censorship?
  - causi 4y ago
    It is censorship. It's just entirely reasonable censorship as Twitch is a private company and can choose not to host whatever it pleases.
    - matai_kolila 4y ago
      It's only censorship in the sense that all rules are "censorship" which IMO removes the value of having a distinct word. A meaningful definition would highlight the desire to suppress a point of view, and you're going to have a hard time justifying "gambling as a point of view", because it's not really a position on an issue.
      - causi 4y ago
        It's only censorship in the sense that all rules are "censorship" which IMO removes the value of having a distinct word. It's censorship in the sense that things are censored, i.e., prevented from being shown or communicated, which is the definition of the word "censorship". Putting a black bar over someone's genitals or bleeping profanity is also censorship. It's just not government censorship, and therefore has no relation to freedom of speech.
password321 4y ago
Wherever there is gambling, crypto seems to be behind it these days.
- jejeyyy77 4y ago
  crypto enables free market activities
  - iterati 4y ago
    And scams. Don't forget the scams.
    - max_ 4y ago
      Most scams occur with government issued money
      - qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
        Thats why the bukaneer islands were such a honest gambler paradise..
    - jejeyyy77 4y ago
      cash & dollars
  - micromacrofoot 4y ago
    a fool and his money are soon parted
- hombre_fatal 4y ago
  Well, it's obvious why. Crypto is much simpler than interacting with dollars, and it's easier to bypass gambling laws, many of which are quite draconian, when you're not interacting with dollars. Crypto casinos can also be "provably fair" to win trust from people when they have no track record. There are more cynical benefits too like how it's easier to disappear into the night with people's money, but you don't have to go that far to see why it might be useful.
alexb_ 4y ago
I really do not understand why people are saying twitch is banning gambling when they are banning gambling that is illegal in the country it operates. This was very clearly done as a short-term way to get out of regulatory scrutiny - gambling laws are starting to be repealed across America, so soon this action will just allow for gambling again (once legal entities don't pay attention to it anymore)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- StanislavPetrov 4y ago
  >I really do not understand why people are saying twitch is banning gambling when they are banning gambling that is illegal in the country it operates. As a poker player, this is very good news as far as I'm concerned. There is a lot of quality content on Twitch from poker players, especially during big events like the World Series of Poker.
  - jyriand 4y ago
    Is poker considered gambling?
    - pcthrowaway 4y ago
      How could it not be? Most players lose money over their lifetimes. It's played in Casinos. There's skill involved, sure, but it's still gambling.
    - sitzkrieg 4y ago
      well a game of skill with betting seems less harsh and way more fun to watch at any rate. havent seen many slots strategy breakdown videos
      - mod 4y ago
        Slots can be played profitably. Not just any slot, not just anytime, but some slots become +EV when the jackpots get high enough. Some other games have been profitable to play in the past, after careful analysis by players. "Advantage players" seek these games out and monitor them for profitable situations. In other cases, there are strategies to just lose less money. Anyway, all that to say, there's definitely slot advice videos and all that out there.
yetiofparis 4y ago
MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- MangoCoffee 4y ago
  is it censorship if its illegal in the country where your company is based? do you not follow the laws of the country where your company is located?
- mschuster91 4y ago
  Simple: Gambling is illegal by law in many countries outside of very strict regulations. Running a forum like Kiwifarms (sadly) is not.
- s-lambert 4y ago
  Twitch already censors a lot of other content and also this isn't just people streaming, they're making money off of it. I don't think this is comparable to other sites like Twitter banning users because Twitch isn't a communication platform, it's an entertainment one and only allowing certain kinds of entertainment is par for the course.
  - Spivak 4y ago
    > Twitch isn't a communication platform, it's an entertainment one I feel like this is hard to argue in general. Twitch really isn't all that different than live streams on TikTok, YouTube, or Facebook which are general communication platforms where creators can get partner status and share ad revenue. The thing that ties Twitter, Twitch, YouTube, Cloudflare, Wordpress, Facebook all together is that they're broadcasting corporations available to the public at large. The value prop to their users is the megaphone. How it's accomplished from a tech perspective shouldn't really matter.
  - fallingknife 4y ago
    > and only allowing certain kinds of entertainment is par for the course It's the legal issue, though. I personally think that laws against gambling are none of the government's damn business, and if Twitch is doing this only because of laws, then I don't like it, but blame the government, not Twitch. If gambling were legal, and Twitch decided to ban it anyway, I would hold it as equivalent to them banning porn on their platform, and totally legit, at least as long as Twitch was not a monopoly.
_fat_santa 4y ago
Coffeezilla did an entire series[1] around this and specifically Robet. Pretty interesting and crazy how much money the casinos made. After watching his series even I was thinking in the back of my head: "I should start one of these". [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbYLxrM5NdU&list=PL4qw3AkxFDSMD7ocgT7wEQq6hHuLAPRTn&index=1&t=0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbYLxrM5NdU&list=PL4qw3AkxFD...
- Eyght 4y ago
  It can be lucrative and fun, until you're confronted with the trail of human wreckage in its wake.
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    It's surprisingly easy to make money if you have no soul or ethical qualms about anything.
scifibestfi 4y ago
Does this mean they're taking action against games with loot boxes? That's gambling minus the possibility of making money.
- Out_of_Characte 4y ago
  Some of the more popular games do have significant resale value on skins that can be turned into steam credits. So its op par with gambling. And no gambler makes money trough their spins, unless you count games like poker where better players can edge out somewhat of an advantage.
- fennecfoxen 4y ago
  No. No it doesn't.
- squeaky-clean 4y ago
  > That's gambling minus the possibility of making money. Lootboxes are extremely scummy, but doesn't the fact that you can't make money from it make it not gambling? Otherwise wouldn't places like Chuck-e-Cheese with ticket prize arcades be considered gambling? Or card games like MTG and Pokemon? In those cases you can even sell your prizes to other people for real cash.
  - Loughla 4y ago
    Honestly. Baseball cards are a very well known, very popular, very mainstream and socially accepted loot-box/gambling. Is is the picture and statistics that make it okay? Why do video game loot-boxes get extra scrutiny? For context, I hate any game that implements them and believe they're the largest reason that mobile gaming continues to suck.
    - jdmdmdmdmd 4y ago
      >For context, I hate any game that implements them and believe they're the largest reason that mobile gaming continues to suck. Can you explain how this contextualizes your above statement and questions?
treis 4y ago
The article wasn't very clear about this. Is this people watching streamers gamble or are they somehow gambling through Twitch?
- alexb_ 4y ago
  Online gambling sites illegal in the US such as stake.com would pay streamers millions of dollars a month to move to Canada so they could legally wake up, play slots for 20 hours in a row for tens of thousands of viewers, and then go to sleep.
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    Presumably so that other people, using VPN's, would then visit those same gambling sites. So the logical fix is not to do anything about the streamers, but to catch the sites offering services to US people via VPN's.
    - alexb_ 4y ago
      Given how much Twitch is moving to advertisers for income (they've bumped up ads to 3 minutes/hour), I think there's also a risk of losing people willing to advertise on Twitch due to not wanting an association with "illegal in the us" activities.
      - YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
        Streaming services also resent "hashtag sponsored hashtag content" in general. They're advertising-supported platforms, so hosting sponsored content is advertising money that's going directly to the streamer rather than though their system where they get a cut. But they've accidentally ended up in a situation where their own ad rates are so bad that their creators couldn't survive without effectively promoting their own competitors, so there's no way for them to forbid it without destroying their own business model. Thus, they're likely to jump on any excuse to ban particular kinds of sponsored content whenever they arise.
  - 4y ago
jmyeet 4y ago
This post accurately mentions the events of the last week but doesn't really capture the full scope of what's going on with Twitch and the gravity of the situation. On the streaming front, Twitch has made a number of changes in the past few months. Typically Twitch Partners had to exclusively live stream on Twitch. They've relaxed these restrictions to really soften the blow for what's coming. A big change (just announced today) is that subscription splits to 50-50 in almost all cases. A lot of mostly bigger streamers were grandfatheered into better deals (ie 70-30). If you don't follow Twitch, the $5/month subscription (and Twitch Prime that came later for Amazon Prime members) really did create a way for smaller creators to be able to survive where they otherwise couldn't on ad or sponsorship revenue alone. But Twitch has been trying to move away from subs because advertising scales so much better for Twitch. The general guideline for ad density now is 3 minutes per hour and you could get 6 ads of pre-roll on joining a livestream. It's kind of crazy how much they're pushing it. This really gives the impression that Twitch is desperate for revenue now they're owned by Amazon. In today's announcement about the sub split changes they basically said 200 hours/month of live streaming costs them $1000/month. That might well be the retail cost on EC2 but it's nowhere near the true cost (which is much less). Now in the last 2 years or so, gambling has really started to dominate the platform. This is quite literally people playing slots on auto-roll for hours every day, sometimes for $1500/spin where each spin may well be 6 seconds. This has been driven by largely unregulated crypto casinos like stake.com. I say "largely unregulated" because stake.com for example is registered in Curacao. The likes of xqc and Trainwrecks (2 of the biggest streamers on the platform) were getting paid in excesss of $1 million/month each to play slots on stake.com. That's how big this is. Twitch announced yesterday that most pure luck gambling (eg slots, dice) that weren't registered and legal in the US (because of greater regulation) would be banned from the platform. It's hard to say why the timing of this is now. Some speculate this is because of the streamer ItsSliker being exposed for scamming $300k+ from other streamers and even viewers over 1-2 years to fund a sports betting addiction (note: the Twitch ban doesn't apply to sports betting). Gambling has been controversial on Twitch and this blew up with the Sliker drama, which led to an entirely separate issue being raised: the alleged cover-up of a sexual assault of one streamer by another. This event was allegedly covered up by a big streamer (Mizkif) who is a member of a large organization called OTK. It was announced there'd be an independent investigation of this and he was suspended from the org yesterday. These are of course serious allegations and should be treated as such and they may well have criminal consequences. It's worth noting that the cover-up accusations came from Trainwrecks after a fresh round of gambling criticism (including by Mizkif) in the wake of the Sliker scamming drama. The victim has since spoken out on the issue and said Train made that public accusation with her blessing and support. All of this has really rocked the Twitch world and, if anything, should just show you how much money there is in gambling, how damaging it is and how much it corrupts.
technonerd 4y ago
It's been a interesting past couple of days of drama but the article fails to mention that twitch employees were accepting large amounts of money from gambling streamers live on stream. https://twitter.com/ostonox/status/1572264800616599552 https://twitter.com/ostonox/status/1572264800616599552 https://nitter.rawbit.ninja/ostonox/status/1572264800616599552 https://nitter.rawbit.ninja/ostonox/status/15722648006165995...
- zzixp 4y ago
  According to what I've seen on /r/livestreamfail (take everything with the finest grain of salt possible), it was only one twitch employee who took money, and they have since passed away.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - gloryjulio 4y ago
    (We know so far)
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    > it was only one twitch employee who took money, Ha. Take that with a global annual production of salt.
  - legohead 4y ago
    Supposedly it was a raffle created by the streamer, which the employee should not have joined. But I wasn't there so again, hearsay.
- blint_carton 4y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if that's against a "Twitch/Amazon code of conduct", but that fact at face value doesn't mean anything nefarious. These could call center employees, qa testers, developers, etc that have no connection to the internal politics of deciding what is allowed on the platform. If they are in fact the decision makers or able to influence policy, yes that' doesn't seem right.
Tenoke 4y ago
>gambling content on websites that aren’t regulated by U.S. gambling restrictions. This effectively kills most poker streaming, no? The US only allows a handful of sites in their US-only version so any non-US citizens streaming are unable to even use the platforms that are approved there. I rarely but occasionally watch a bit of them as a cheap way to relive my poker days so I am not too happy about this. Further, it seems like the problem was that a streamer was soliciting loans which doesn't have that much to do with whether US-approved gambling sites are allowed or not.
- draw_down 4y ago
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  Does poker count as gambling in the US?
  - DawsonBruce 4y ago
    The UIGEA (Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act) was passed in November of 2006, as part of the SAFE Port Act [0], which placed online poker into a legal grey area for most U.S. citizens. A lot of major poker sites withdrew from the U.S. market as a result. The legality of both in-person and online poker varies from state to state. [0]: https://www.beatthefish.com/us-poker-sites/uigea-unlawful-internet-gambling-enforcement-act/ https://www.beatthefish.com/us-poker-sites/uigea-unlawful-in...
    - mod 4y ago
      > A lot of major poker sites withdrew from the U.S. market as a result. That's a nice way to put it. In reality, they all flaunted the (bullshit) law, and set up all kinds of phony businesses and things to process all the payouts, because banks wouldn't do gambling stuff. I got a check from a golf shop once. Then the feds went after them on fraud and similar charges, and shut down Full Tilt, Poker Stars, and Absolute. Seized domains and funds and stuff. That's when they "withdrew from the U.S. market."
kmnc 4y ago
There will be many loopholes and ways to still stream gambling, but the main result of this hopefully is the end of #ad gambling streams which are very dishonest and show a glorified version of gambling (100k bonus buys, 1k per spin) with absolutely no way to know where the money is coming from since it is all crypto. Watching someone spin 1k slots knowing they are making millions from advertising is very different from watching someone spin 5 dollar slots of their own money. The excitement level from a viewer perspective is also way less. The danger, and likely future however is sites like DraftKings and Fanduel setting up slots and being allowed fully, then sponsoring streamers. Basically, the danger with banning the unregulated stuff yet still being very supportive of gambling (which Twitch and more so Amazon obviously are) is opening a door to further normalization and mainstream acceptance of gambling (see Poker taking a nosedive due to regulation yet paving the way for the massive boom in fantasy sports)... but hey, at least some guy in Curacao won't be getting the millions, some CEO and shareholders in the US will. Still, it is a good step by twitch, and I hope it really does end the #ad gambling streams. We may see a surge in Fantasy sports betting and e-sports betting though. Having xQC watch NFL games on stream while betting thousands on regulated sites is probably a future Amazon would be very happy with.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  > Watching someone spin 1k slots knowing they are making millions from advertising is very different from watching someone spin 5 dollar slots of their own money It's not just where the money is coming from but whether the odds are different from regular players. The gambling sites who sponsor this can very well adjust the odds per user so that the streamer gets consistent wins where as real players get the real odds which favor the house. I've seen such gambling "ads" on YouTube, obviously they're not presented as ads nor even as gambling, rather they're presented as a way of making money, a loophole in the game, all the way to saying that there used to be an old version of this game but they closed it down due to many people winning, but this new game also has a loophole (how convenient!). In the "ad", they were consistently winning, in such a way where there's basically no way to lose even if you tried it on purpose. I very much doubt the video was falsified, rather the gambling platform was able to change the odds per-use so that their affiliates can get consistent wins so they can promote the platforms without requiring video trickery.
platz 4y ago
The type of gambling Slicker was engaged in was regulated sports betting. So, the ban on unregulated gambling doesn't even cover the Slicker situation. Twitch has several large contracts with sports gambling on their site as wll. Makes you really wonder about the true motivations of the selectivity of the ban.
- stefan_ 4y ago
  What if.. the two are entirely unrelated and you only make the connection because your $STREAMER is involved in pointless drama? Power law, folks.
  - philippejara 4y ago
    pretty sure said $STREAMERS are some of the biggest ones in the platform, and said pointless drama was started due to some of them asking twitch to ban said gambling. Occam's razor and all that, especially when you have headlines like these that do a pretty good job of making twitch look good while not actually banning gambling really.
MangoCoffee 4y ago
>After years of silence, Twitch announced on Tuesday that it’s banning the streaming of unregulated gambling on its platform. It’s about damn time. i don't understand the comments here about censorship. is Twitch above the laws?
- fennecfoxen 4y ago
  Eh, there's not necessarily anything illegal about your streaming platform showing video of illegal activities.
unixbane 4y ago
I don't see how being a "gaming" [1] video streaming service implies that you need to take action against gambling that is implemented via it. They will just move somewhere else. Seems like an ultra tunnel visioned political "issue". 1. One which barely has anything to do with gaming other than having 3 lines of code to store a game identifier with a stream to say which game the stream was mainly streaming. They even have entire streams that do non gaming shit and that's what all the top streamers do most of the time. In other words, this is outrage porn against streaming services (I think, as like with counter strike go loot boxes[2]. i don't understand your culture though [not that i cant, i just dont care] so I could be entirely wrong). This is no different than when cameras or VHS came out and people complained about piracy and whatever. Whatever political takeaway we're supposed to be getting here is invalid. Twitch is just a streaming site. If I make my own streaming site (which I'll never do, because the web is horse shit), I shouldn't have to hire people to purge gambling on it. > but you are profiting from them looking at your ads while they gamble And VHS profited from mass piracy. Get a grip. 2. yeah, loot boxes are fucking cancer, i don't care for making them illegal though as that requires paying more tax and they will just come up with different cancer. you cant fix bad developers
hi5eyes 4y ago
only after a huge streamer gets outed forr scamming fans/other big streamers leading to streamers tweeting outrage
Kukumber 4y ago
Misleading title, they won't > to prohibit streaming of gambling sites (..) that AREN'T licensed in the US or other jurisdictions That mean, it is to promote the gambling sites that are licensed, and to discourage people from promoting sites that are not licensed Anyone who says "they take action AGAINST gambling" are full of shit and are part of the problem But you get the society you deserve
TLLtchvL8KZ 4y ago
That entire twitch site seems like pure brain rot, from what I understand it's entirely giving people money to watch them play games or for women to say your name. The whole thing seems unhealthy from the get-go.
- mym1990 4y ago
  Twitch is hardly pure brain rot, there are plenty of things worse, but the growth and commercialization of streaming have created a lot of problems for parts of the platform. There is some really amazing content on there and as far as I have seen most watchers have Twitch going on with something else. For the really, really massive communities, it does seem like a crapshoot. Whats the point of chat that streams by at a million miles an hour? Then again...you get to see modern day celebrities interacting in real time...for many that is a cool thing to experience.
- chowells 4y ago
  You are describing a very small percentage of streamers. If you avoid people with over 100 concurrent viewers, you find thousands of streamers who aren't doing more than trying to build communities around a common hobby. And it was my impression that that's seen as a good thing.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Honestly, I don't think it is necessarily any worse than let's say sports. You are watching other people playing a game with some people commenting over. Acceptable past time. Now, as it grows and as certain content becomes more popular it becomes rather less murky and clean. Still I wouldn't call it all bad.
    - unethical_ban 4y ago
      The faux-friendship interactions with chat I think can be pretty unhealthy for sensitive viewers (shut-ins and teens). Like many shitty sites, if you go to the places with fewer people, it isn't so bad. Stick with people with a few hundred viewers, avoid simp-magnets and loudmouths.
pclmulqdq 4y ago
Time to ban the softcore porn too ("hot tub" streams), and then the platform will be reasonably clean.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  And treat the creators equally, be it IRL or avatar users... Or partners or not... I really expect Twitch to be lot more proactive. Like for example they should have instantly shutdown streamers showing copyrighted tv series...
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    I agree. The redistribution of copyrighted material through "reaction" (but not really) streams is also ridiculous, and they need to get on top of that.
Ekaros 4y ago
Now if only they took action against porn next... One can dream...
- sitzkrieg 4y ago
  interesting definition of porn
Ekaros 4y ago
Annoying part of this is really if there is need of USA regulation. As European I should be allowed freely to view content generated in Europe which happens on platform regulated in EU. If Twitch want to limit it they can just ban USA based viewers.
nullish_signal 4y ago
Maybe next some action against the Prostitutes of "Just Chatting" Especially those in Bathtubs + Bikinis...
- hunterb123 4y ago
  Maybe don't visit them if it irks you so much. Personally everyone on Twitch is a prostitute in some way, whether it's of their personality or looks. Or is it only girls you're having a problem with? It's all panhandling imo...
  - nullish_signal 4y ago
    I want fewer avenues of people being exposed to Porn Porn being """Free Speech""" is a Farce Yes I have a problem with the Women, because nobody is interested in Men in Bathtubs - That is not the dominating Pornographic Content I have seen on Twitch - It's all Women in Micro Bikinis
    - hunterb123 4y ago
      That's a fine opinion, but others clearly want it and want to do it. There's a supply and demand. It's legal and doesn't even meet the definition of pornography so it's up to Twitch's ToS.
MilkyFloor 4y ago
[dead]

191 points by thm 4y ago

ThrowawayTestr 4y ago

Interesting that sports betting is allowed.

rockostrich 4y ago
Not really. Online sports betting is legal in like 20 states at this point and I think most others have some kind of legislation pending or proposed to make it legal soon.
mudrockbestgirl 4y ago
Isn't that regulated? > Twitch said it will bar all gambling content on websites that aren’t regulated by U.S. gambling restrictions
- elfatizer 4y ago
  31 states have legal channels for retail/online sports betting. If DraftKings can officially sponsor the NFL, low chance it will be knocked down by Twitch. I think this line mostly refers to the U.S. because there are large streamers who stream gambling sites from Canada or elsewhere due to lighter local restrictions.
- philippejara 4y ago
  Gambling is a problem regardless of being regulated, if anything else being regulated only makes it easier for the audience to get addicted to it, random viewer #2345 from the US isn't gonna gamble on some dingy underground casino if there's an openly available one to do it in.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jgrowl 4y ago
I WONDER WHY https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-08/-thursday-night-football-on-amazon-why-you-need-prime-not-tv-to-watch-games https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-08/-thursday...

mudrockbestgirl 4y ago

Now I just wish that YouTube would remove all "influencers" trying to sell you crypto/stocks/etc. But then TikTok is still left...

devoutsalsa 4y ago
- tmpz22 4y ago
  They’re actually hilarious. I mostly watch just to keep up to date with new crypto technologies. I’ve already tripled my money (50USD to 150USD) in 15 days because I saw someone do a video on lolcrypto.app XD /s
cwkoss 4y ago
You wont see crypto influencers on Tiktok if you don't engage with the videos. A couple "not interested"s and I haven't seen one in months.
smaryjerry 4y ago
How do you differentiate crypto from any other video game currency. You can buy in game currencies for real money and literally gamble with it inside a game with literally slots or loot boxes or whatever, then trade it to others as well, in exchange for real money. Every game is different though. I’m just struggling to find the difference between crypto and any other digital in a video game in regards to gambling. Both are code driven and if anything in game gambling seems worse because rather than paying a market value where everyone has the same risk, you are paying the game creator for loot boxes or info and currency which they can print infinitely. Of course if they did print too much of an item or currency it would crash their in game market and destroy the rarity of those items. Anyways it seems like if Twitch is going after crypto gambling websites they need to go after in game gambling as well.
- lovich 4y ago
  > How do you differentiate crypto from any other video game currency. Being able to use it literally anywhere but that game springs to mind as an easy check. If crypto is the same as game currency doesn’t that invalidate the vast majority of claims about the benefits of crypto?

sneak 4y ago

Censorship of video streams is the wrong place for this, even if you think gambling is bad. Twitch isn’t taking action against gambling. It’s censoring streamers. Publishing video of oneself gambling is very very different than accepting wagers. They are taking action against the publishing of videos of performative gamblers, not against gambling. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

qsort 4y ago
A platform whose audience is mostly teenagers is the wrong place to ban streamers actively promoting gambling? How is that even remotely censorship?
- causi 4y ago
  It is censorship. It's just entirely reasonable censorship as Twitch is a private company and can choose not to host whatever it pleases.
  - matai_kolila 4y ago
    It's only censorship in the sense that all rules are "censorship" which IMO removes the value of having a distinct word. A meaningful definition would highlight the desire to suppress a point of view, and you're going to have a hard time justifying "gambling as a point of view", because it's not really a position on an issue.
    - causi 4y ago
      It's only censorship in the sense that all rules are "censorship" which IMO removes the value of having a distinct word. It's censorship in the sense that things are censored, i.e., prevented from being shown or communicated, which is the definition of the word "censorship". Putting a black bar over someone's genitals or bleeping profanity is also censorship. It's just not government censorship, and therefore has no relation to freedom of speech.

password321 4y ago

Wherever there is gambling, crypto seems to be behind it these days.

jejeyyy77 4y ago
crypto enables free market activities
- iterati 4y ago
  And scams. Don't forget the scams.
  - max_ 4y ago
    Most scams occur with government issued money
    - qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
      Thats why the bukaneer islands were such a honest gambler paradise..
  - jejeyyy77 4y ago
    cash & dollars
- micromacrofoot 4y ago
  a fool and his money are soon parted
hombre_fatal 4y ago
Well, it's obvious why. Crypto is much simpler than interacting with dollars, and it's easier to bypass gambling laws, many of which are quite draconian, when you're not interacting with dollars. Crypto casinos can also be "provably fair" to win trust from people when they have no track record. There are more cynical benefits too like how it's easier to disappear into the night with people's money, but you don't have to go that far to see why it might be useful.

alexb_ 4y ago

I really do not understand why people are saying twitch is banning gambling when they are banning gambling that is illegal in the country it operates. This was very clearly done as a short-term way to get out of regulatory scrutiny - gambling laws are starting to be repealed across America, so soon this action will just allow for gambling again (once legal entities don't pay attention to it anymore)

deleted 4y ago
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StanislavPetrov 4y ago
>I really do not understand why people are saying twitch is banning gambling when they are banning gambling that is illegal in the country it operates. As a poker player, this is very good news as far as I'm concerned. There is a lot of quality content on Twitch from poker players, especially during big events like the World Series of Poker.
- jyriand 4y ago
  Is poker considered gambling?
  - pcthrowaway 4y ago
    How could it not be? Most players lose money over their lifetimes. It's played in Casinos. There's skill involved, sure, but it's still gambling.
  - sitzkrieg 4y ago
    well a game of skill with betting seems less harsh and way more fun to watch at any rate. havent seen many slots strategy breakdown videos
    - mod 4y ago
      Slots can be played profitably. Not just any slot, not just anytime, but some slots become +EV when the jackpots get high enough. Some other games have been profitable to play in the past, after careful analysis by players. "Advantage players" seek these games out and monitor them for profitable situations. In other cases, there are strategies to just lose less money. Anyway, all that to say, there's definitely slot advice videos and all that out there.

yetiofparis 4y ago

MonkeyMalarky 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
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MangoCoffee 4y ago
is it censorship if its illegal in the country where your company is based? do you not follow the laws of the country where your company is located?
mschuster91 4y ago
Simple: Gambling is illegal by law in many countries outside of very strict regulations. Running a forum like Kiwifarms (sadly) is not.
s-lambert 4y ago
Twitch already censors a lot of other content and also this isn't just people streaming, they're making money off of it. I don't think this is comparable to other sites like Twitter banning users because Twitch isn't a communication platform, it's an entertainment one and only allowing certain kinds of entertainment is par for the course.
- Spivak 4y ago
  > Twitch isn't a communication platform, it's an entertainment one I feel like this is hard to argue in general. Twitch really isn't all that different than live streams on TikTok, YouTube, or Facebook which are general communication platforms where creators can get partner status and share ad revenue. The thing that ties Twitter, Twitch, YouTube, Cloudflare, Wordpress, Facebook all together is that they're broadcasting corporations available to the public at large. The value prop to their users is the megaphone. How it's accomplished from a tech perspective shouldn't really matter.
- fallingknife 4y ago
  > and only allowing certain kinds of entertainment is par for the course It's the legal issue, though. I personally think that laws against gambling are none of the government's damn business, and if Twitch is doing this only because of laws, then I don't like it, but blame the government, not Twitch. If gambling were legal, and Twitch decided to ban it anyway, I would hold it as equivalent to them banning porn on their platform, and totally legit, at least as long as Twitch was not a monopoly.

_fat_santa 4y ago

Coffeezilla did an entire series[1] around this and specifically Robet. Pretty interesting and crazy how much money the casinos made. After watching his series even I was thinking in the back of my head: "I should start one of these". [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbYLxrM5NdU&list=PL4qw3AkxFDSMD7ocgT7wEQq6hHuLAPRTn&index=1&t=0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbYLxrM5NdU&list=PL4qw3AkxFD...

Eyght 4y ago
It can be lucrative and fun, until you're confronted with the trail of human wreckage in its wake.
- theshrike79 4y ago
  It's surprisingly easy to make money if you have no soul or ethical qualms about anything.

scifibestfi 4y ago

Does this mean they're taking action against games with loot boxes? That's gambling minus the possibility of making money.

Out_of_Characte 4y ago
Some of the more popular games do have significant resale value on skins that can be turned into steam credits. So its op par with gambling. And no gambler makes money trough their spins, unless you count games like poker where better players can edge out somewhat of an advantage.
fennecfoxen 4y ago
No. No it doesn't.
squeaky-clean 4y ago
> That's gambling minus the possibility of making money. Lootboxes are extremely scummy, but doesn't the fact that you can't make money from it make it not gambling? Otherwise wouldn't places like Chuck-e-Cheese with ticket prize arcades be considered gambling? Or card games like MTG and Pokemon? In those cases you can even sell your prizes to other people for real cash.
- Loughla 4y ago
  Honestly. Baseball cards are a very well known, very popular, very mainstream and socially accepted loot-box/gambling. Is is the picture and statistics that make it okay? Why do video game loot-boxes get extra scrutiny? For context, I hate any game that implements them and believe they're the largest reason that mobile gaming continues to suck.
  - jdmdmdmdmd 4y ago
    >For context, I hate any game that implements them and believe they're the largest reason that mobile gaming continues to suck. Can you explain how this contextualizes your above statement and questions?

treis 4y ago

The article wasn't very clear about this. Is this people watching streamers gamble or are they somehow gambling through Twitch?

alexb_ 4y ago
Online gambling sites illegal in the US such as stake.com would pay streamers millions of dollars a month to move to Canada so they could legally wake up, play slots for 20 hours in a row for tens of thousands of viewers, and then go to sleep.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  Presumably so that other people, using VPN's, would then visit those same gambling sites. So the logical fix is not to do anything about the streamers, but to catch the sites offering services to US people via VPN's.
  - alexb_ 4y ago
    Given how much Twitch is moving to advertisers for income (they've bumped up ads to 3 minutes/hour), I think there's also a risk of losing people willing to advertise on Twitch due to not wanting an association with "illegal in the us" activities.
    - YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
      Streaming services also resent "hashtag sponsored hashtag content" in general. They're advertising-supported platforms, so hosting sponsored content is advertising money that's going directly to the streamer rather than though their system where they get a cut. But they've accidentally ended up in a situation where their own ad rates are so bad that their creators couldn't survive without effectively promoting their own competitors, so there's no way for them to forbid it without destroying their own business model. Thus, they're likely to jump on any excuse to ban particular kinds of sponsored content whenever they arise.
- 4y ago

jmyeet 4y ago

This post accurately mentions the events of the last week but doesn't really capture the full scope of what's going on with Twitch and the gravity of the situation. On the streaming front, Twitch has made a number of changes in the past few months. Typically Twitch Partners had to exclusively live stream on Twitch. They've relaxed these restrictions to really soften the blow for what's coming. A big change (just announced today) is that subscription splits to 50-50 in almost all cases. A lot of mostly bigger streamers were grandfatheered into better deals (ie 70-30). If you don't follow Twitch, the $5/month subscription (and Twitch Prime that came later for Amazon Prime members) really did create a way for smaller creators to be able to survive where they otherwise couldn't on ad or sponsorship revenue alone. But Twitch has been trying to move away from subs because advertising scales so much better for Twitch. The general guideline for ad density now is 3 minutes per hour and you could get 6 ads of pre-roll on joining a livestream. It's kind of crazy how much they're pushing it. This really gives the impression that Twitch is desperate for revenue now they're owned by Amazon. In today's announcement about the sub split changes they basically said 200 hours/month of live streaming costs them $1000/month. That might well be the retail cost on EC2 but it's nowhere near the true cost (which is much less). Now in the last 2 years or so, gambling has really started to dominate the platform. This is quite literally people playing slots on auto-roll for hours every day, sometimes for $1500/spin where each spin may well be 6 seconds. This has been driven by largely unregulated crypto casinos like stake.com. I say "largely unregulated" because stake.com for example is registered in Curacao. The likes of xqc and Trainwrecks (2 of the biggest streamers on the platform) were getting paid in excesss of $1 million/month each to play slots on stake.com. That's how big this is. Twitch announced yesterday that most pure luck gambling (eg slots, dice) that weren't registered and legal in the US (because of greater regulation) would be banned from the platform. It's hard to say why the timing of this is now. Some speculate this is because of the streamer ItsSliker being exposed for scamming $300k+ from other streamers and even viewers over 1-2 years to fund a sports betting addiction (note: the Twitch ban doesn't apply to sports betting). Gambling has been controversial on Twitch and this blew up with the Sliker drama, which led to an entirely separate issue being raised: the alleged cover-up of a sexual assault of one streamer by another. This event was allegedly covered up by a big streamer (Mizkif) who is a member of a large organization called OTK. It was announced there'd be an independent investigation of this and he was suspended from the org yesterday. These are of course serious allegations and should be treated as such and they may well have criminal consequences. It's worth noting that the cover-up accusations came from Trainwrecks after a fresh round of gambling criticism (including by Mizkif) in the wake of the Sliker scamming drama. The victim has since spoken out on the issue and said Train made that public accusation with her blessing and support. All of this has really rocked the Twitch world and, if anything, should just show you how much money there is in gambling, how damaging it is and how much it corrupts.

technonerd 4y ago

It's been a interesting past couple of days of drama but the article fails to mention that twitch employees were accepting large amounts of money from gambling streamers live on stream. https://twitter.com/ostonox/status/1572264800616599552 https://twitter.com/ostonox/status/1572264800616599552 https://nitter.rawbit.ninja/ostonox/status/1572264800616599552 https://nitter.rawbit.ninja/ostonox/status/15722648006165995...

zzixp 4y ago
According to what I've seen on /r/livestreamfail (take everything with the finest grain of salt possible), it was only one twitch employee who took money, and they have since passed away.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- gloryjulio 4y ago
  (We know so far)
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  > it was only one twitch employee who took money, Ha. Take that with a global annual production of salt.
- legohead 4y ago
  Supposedly it was a raffle created by the streamer, which the employee should not have joined. But I wasn't there so again, hearsay.
blint_carton 4y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if that's against a "Twitch/Amazon code of conduct", but that fact at face value doesn't mean anything nefarious. These could call center employees, qa testers, developers, etc that have no connection to the internal politics of deciding what is allowed on the platform. If they are in fact the decision makers or able to influence policy, yes that' doesn't seem right.

Tenoke 4y ago

>gambling content on websites that aren’t regulated by U.S. gambling restrictions. This effectively kills most poker streaming, no? The US only allows a handful of sites in their US-only version so any non-US citizens streaming are unable to even use the platforms that are approved there. I rarely but occasionally watch a bit of them as a cheap way to relive my poker days so I am not too happy about this. Further, it seems like the problem was that a streamer was soliciting loans which doesn't have that much to do with whether US-approved gambling sites are allowed or not.

draw_down 4y ago
robertlagrant 4y ago
Does poker count as gambling in the US?
- DawsonBruce 4y ago
  The UIGEA (Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act) was passed in November of 2006, as part of the SAFE Port Act [0], which placed online poker into a legal grey area for most U.S. citizens. A lot of major poker sites withdrew from the U.S. market as a result. The legality of both in-person and online poker varies from state to state. [0]: https://www.beatthefish.com/us-poker-sites/uigea-unlawful-internet-gambling-enforcement-act/ https://www.beatthefish.com/us-poker-sites/uigea-unlawful-in...
  - mod 4y ago
    > A lot of major poker sites withdrew from the U.S. market as a result. That's a nice way to put it. In reality, they all flaunted the (bullshit) law, and set up all kinds of phony businesses and things to process all the payouts, because banks wouldn't do gambling stuff. I got a check from a golf shop once. Then the feds went after them on fraud and similar charges, and shut down Full Tilt, Poker Stars, and Absolute. Seized domains and funds and stuff. That's when they "withdrew from the U.S. market."

kmnc 4y ago

There will be many loopholes and ways to still stream gambling, but the main result of this hopefully is the end of #ad gambling streams which are very dishonest and show a glorified version of gambling (100k bonus buys, 1k per spin) with absolutely no way to know where the money is coming from since it is all crypto. Watching someone spin 1k slots knowing they are making millions from advertising is very different from watching someone spin 5 dollar slots of their own money. The excitement level from a viewer perspective is also way less. The danger, and likely future however is sites like DraftKings and Fanduel setting up slots and being allowed fully, then sponsoring streamers. Basically, the danger with banning the unregulated stuff yet still being very supportive of gambling (which Twitch and more so Amazon obviously are) is opening a door to further normalization and mainstream acceptance of gambling (see Poker taking a nosedive due to regulation yet paving the way for the massive boom in fantasy sports)... but hey, at least some guy in Curacao won't be getting the millions, some CEO and shareholders in the US will. Still, it is a good step by twitch, and I hope it really does end the #ad gambling streams. We may see a surge in Fantasy sports betting and e-sports betting though. Having xQC watch NFL games on stream while betting thousands on regulated sites is probably a future Amazon would be very happy with.

Nextgrid 4y ago
> Watching someone spin 1k slots knowing they are making millions from advertising is very different from watching someone spin 5 dollar slots of their own money It's not just where the money is coming from but whether the odds are different from regular players. The gambling sites who sponsor this can very well adjust the odds per user so that the streamer gets consistent wins where as real players get the real odds which favor the house. I've seen such gambling "ads" on YouTube, obviously they're not presented as ads nor even as gambling, rather they're presented as a way of making money, a loophole in the game, all the way to saying that there used to be an old version of this game but they closed it down due to many people winning, but this new game also has a loophole (how convenient!). In the "ad", they were consistently winning, in such a way where there's basically no way to lose even if you tried it on purpose. I very much doubt the video was falsified, rather the gambling platform was able to change the odds per-use so that their affiliates can get consistent wins so they can promote the platforms without requiring video trickery.

platz 4y ago

The type of gambling Slicker was engaged in was regulated sports betting. So, the ban on unregulated gambling doesn't even cover the Slicker situation. Twitch has several large contracts with sports gambling on their site as wll. Makes you really wonder about the true motivations of the selectivity of the ban.

stefan_ 4y ago
What if.. the two are entirely unrelated and you only make the connection because your $STREAMER is involved in pointless drama? Power law, folks.
- philippejara 4y ago
  pretty sure said $STREAMERS are some of the biggest ones in the platform, and said pointless drama was started due to some of them asking twitch to ban said gambling. Occam's razor and all that, especially when you have headlines like these that do a pretty good job of making twitch look good while not actually banning gambling really.

MangoCoffee 4y ago

>After years of silence, Twitch announced on Tuesday that it’s banning the streaming of unregulated gambling on its platform. It’s about damn time. i don't understand the comments here about censorship. is Twitch above the laws?

fennecfoxen 4y ago
Eh, there's not necessarily anything illegal about your streaming platform showing video of illegal activities.

unixbane 4y ago

I don't see how being a "gaming" [1] video streaming service implies that you need to take action against gambling that is implemented via it. They will just move somewhere else. Seems like an ultra tunnel visioned political "issue". 1. One which barely has anything to do with gaming other than having 3 lines of code to store a game identifier with a stream to say which game the stream was mainly streaming. They even have entire streams that do non gaming shit and that's what all the top streamers do most of the time. In other words, this is outrage porn against streaming services (I think, as like with counter strike go loot boxes[2]. i don't understand your culture though [not that i cant, i just dont care] so I could be entirely wrong). This is no different than when cameras or VHS came out and people complained about piracy and whatever. Whatever political takeaway we're supposed to be getting here is invalid. Twitch is just a streaming site. If I make my own streaming site (which I'll never do, because the web is horse shit), I shouldn't have to hire people to purge gambling on it. > but you are profiting from them looking at your ads while they gamble And VHS profited from mass piracy. Get a grip. 2. yeah, loot boxes are fucking cancer, i don't care for making them illegal though as that requires paying more tax and they will just come up with different cancer. you cant fix bad developers

hi5eyes 4y ago

only after a huge streamer gets outed forr scamming fans/other big streamers leading to streamers tweeting outrage

Kukumber 4y ago

Misleading title, they won't > to prohibit streaming of gambling sites (..) that AREN'T licensed in the US or other jurisdictions That mean, it is to promote the gambling sites that are licensed, and to discourage people from promoting sites that are not licensed Anyone who says "they take action AGAINST gambling" are full of shit and are part of the problem But you get the society you deserve

TLLtchvL8KZ 4y ago

That entire twitch site seems like pure brain rot, from what I understand it's entirely giving people money to watch them play games or for women to say your name. The whole thing seems unhealthy from the get-go.

mym1990 4y ago
Twitch is hardly pure brain rot, there are plenty of things worse, but the growth and commercialization of streaming have created a lot of problems for parts of the platform. There is some really amazing content on there and as far as I have seen most watchers have Twitch going on with something else. For the really, really massive communities, it does seem like a crapshoot. Whats the point of chat that streams by at a million miles an hour? Then again...you get to see modern day celebrities interacting in real time...for many that is a cool thing to experience.
chowells 4y ago
You are describing a very small percentage of streamers. If you avoid people with over 100 concurrent viewers, you find thousands of streamers who aren't doing more than trying to build communities around a common hobby. And it was my impression that that's seen as a good thing.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Honestly, I don't think it is necessarily any worse than let's say sports. You are watching other people playing a game with some people commenting over. Acceptable past time. Now, as it grows and as certain content becomes more popular it becomes rather less murky and clean. Still I wouldn't call it all bad.
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    The faux-friendship interactions with chat I think can be pretty unhealthy for sensitive viewers (shut-ins and teens). Like many shitty sites, if you go to the places with fewer people, it isn't so bad. Stick with people with a few hundred viewers, avoid simp-magnets and loudmouths.

pclmulqdq 4y ago

Time to ban the softcore porn too ("hot tub" streams), and then the platform will be reasonably clean.

Ekaros 4y ago
And treat the creators equally, be it IRL or avatar users... Or partners or not... I really expect Twitch to be lot more proactive. Like for example they should have instantly shutdown streamers showing copyrighted tv series...
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  I agree. The redistribution of copyrighted material through "reaction" (but not really) streams is also ridiculous, and they need to get on top of that.

Ekaros 4y ago

Now if only they took action against porn next... One can dream...

sitzkrieg 4y ago
interesting definition of porn

Ekaros 4y ago

Annoying part of this is really if there is need of USA regulation. As European I should be allowed freely to view content generated in Europe which happens on platform regulated in EU. If Twitch want to limit it they can just ban USA based viewers.

nullish_signal 4y ago

Maybe next some action against the Prostitutes of "Just Chatting" Especially those in Bathtubs + Bikinis...

hunterb123 4y ago
Maybe don't visit them if it irks you so much. Personally everyone on Twitch is a prostitute in some way, whether it's of their personality or looks. Or is it only girls you're having a problem with? It's all panhandling imo...
- nullish_signal 4y ago
  I want fewer avenues of people being exposed to Porn Porn being """Free Speech""" is a Farce Yes I have a problem with the Women, because nobody is interested in Men in Bathtubs - That is not the dominating Pornographic Content I have seen on Twitch - It's all Women in Micro Bikinis
  - hunterb123 4y ago
    That's a fine opinion, but others clearly want it and want to do it. There's a supply and demand. It's legal and doesn't even meet the definition of pornography so it's up to Twitch's ToS.

MilkyFloor 4y ago

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