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Oh yeah, super good idea. We had fantastic experience with humiliated nations before. It worked so well for Germany after WW1 /s FACT: the end of this war must

Oh yeah, super good idea. We had fantastic experience with humiliated nations before. It worked so well for Germany after WW1 /s FACT: the end of this war must be positive for the Russian people, no matter whether Russia loses or wins the military operation. Putin came to power because the West didnt help the former Soviet republics. If Russia is left alone humiliated again then we will have the next anti-western system in 10 years.

te_chris 4y ago
That’s not a fact. It’s up to Russians and Russia what happens after this.
dandanua 4y ago
Yes, it's Ukraine must give up everything and pay reparations for russians - so they don't feel humiliated because of who they are. /s
elurg 4y ago
DennisP 4y ago
The worst that will happen to Russia is that they get pushed all the way out of the country they invaded, and maybe lose various assets they have in other foreign countries. Nobody's foolish enough to try to make Russia flat-out surrender, like Germany in WWI. Caution is certainly warranted but it doesn't seem productive to reward Russia for invading another country.
vincnetas 4y ago
So you say that WWII did not humiliate Germany? Can we do same to Russia then? What is your proposal to how not humiliate Russia? Russia already humiliated themselves by not wining this conflict for so long. In their book anything less than total conquest of Ukraine is humiliation.
- misiti3780 4y ago
  They said WWI. I assume they were referring to the Versaille Treaty
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    Yes but the point the parent made was that after WW1 they were not restricted and it lead to WW2 and after WW2 it lead to the EU. So its pretty clear what strategy was better. In fact, the Republicans under Henry Cabot Lodge wanted exactly that, Germany had to be defeated and invaded. It was the only way to get lasting peace in Europe. And of course many in France like Foch wanted the same thing.
    - misiti3780 4y ago
      i agree
sudhirj 4y ago
More that sanctions or any other punishments must be focussed on the Putin regime and not the Russian population in general. And should end quickly if the regime changes.
- ptnxlo 4y ago
  Explain the difference between Putin's regime and the Russian population.
trhway 4y ago
> We had fantastic experience with humiliated nations before. It worked so well for Germany after WW1 /s The mistake was corrected after WWII by splitting the country into occupation zones. That is the only way to deal with Russia too. Pushing out of Ukraine isn't enough. Russia has to be demilitarized, most importantly - denuclearized, it should lose its place in UN Security Council. It also should be denazified - the current fascist regime must be totally dismantled, and the country must be split to avoid such regime coming back again. >Putin came to power because the West didnt help the former Soviet republics. Putin came to power because the "system", ie. KGB in particular wasn't dismantled, and because the further splitting up of the country was prevented. Whole world, including US, was afraid of appearance of several new smaller states, instead of just one big Russia, possessing nukes. Now, one can expect everybody learnt from that mistake made 30 years ago - this time the nukes need to be taken away completely and the country split. > the end of this war must be positive for the Russian people No. Only crushing humiliating defeat with the split of the country can reach into Russian brain and cure it from the "Great Russia chauvinism". Without such a process of cure, the monster will soon be back.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Having this split happen through occupation would be a disaster. The west does not have anywhere near the manpower necessary to make this happen. The rule of thumb is that the occupying force needs to be 5% of the population, which means 9 million for Russia. However, it could happen naturally. If the Putin regime collapses it is quite likely that a clear successor widely seen as legitimate doesn't materialize. If so, the many autonomous regions of Russia with regional identity could declare independence and make it stick.
  - trhway 4y ago
    Of course it can't be done through sheer brute force. One has to use an opportunity of Russia [almost] falling apart on its own like the one 30 years ago or the one that seems to come about right now. This time it comes at a huge cost to Ukrainians, and whether/when another such opportunity would come about and at what cost we don't know, so better to not lose the opportunity this time. >The west does not have anywhere near the manpower necessary to make this happen. One of the biggest occupying/controlling power for the biggest piece of territory - Far East and East Siberia - is China. And there is no need to actually occupy whole Russia. Only in Moscow and a bit of force (more like credible threat of it), and that is work for the West and Turkey, to make sure that nobody would prevent those autonomous regions going their own independent way (which in many cases would be just naturally falling into orbit of a near by big country like Turkey, Kazakhstan, China, Ukraine or a block like EU)
m000 4y ago
> the end of this war must be positive for the Russian people, no matter whether Russia loses or wins the military operation. I can see a plausible end that avoids ridicule on either side: - West will maintain that Putin meant to destroy Ukraine. So, limiting him to the new status-quo for Luhansk and Donetsk (whatever that would be) is a success. - Putin will claim that the target of the "military operation" was to make Luhansk and Donetsk safe for the Russian-speaking population there. The new status-quo provides for that. So the operation was a success.
dzhiurgis 4y ago
People deserve the government they have.
- eternalban 4y ago
  Are you referring to the new overt dart vader look in the city of brotherly love? Bring out the capes! (but this an international phenomena, so yeah, agreed.)
bigodbiel 4y ago
Soviet Russia after its collapse had a chance to integrate itself to the west. Even if neoliberal policies were attrocious (and they weren't exclusive to Russia, but to the whole developing world) during the 90's, its integration to the global division of labor is what allowed them to re-emerge and have rising standards of living, much higher than during Soviet times. But they still want revanchism and imperialism in the 21st c.?
- panick21_ 4y ago
  > neoliberal policies were attrocious They were not. The reality is that if you put all post-sovit countries on a graph and look at those that actually did neoliberal policies correctly, those are now the nations that are by far the most successful. Its not the fault of the West that the Russian elites were totally an completely corrupt and had no interest in real reform. Russia actually resisted many reforms and the elites simply put themselves in a position to take advantage. To just blame all of that on the West is nonsense.
panick21_ 4y ago
So much the same old historical nonsense still being propagated by people. > Oh yeah, super good idea. We had fantastic experience with humiliated nations before. It worked so well for Germany after WW1 /s Germany was not humiliated. The terms imposed on Germany were not actually as bad, the idea that these were some horrible terms come from a few British intellectuals and German Foreign office. Germany was treated with gloves of silk compared to how Germany treated France and Russia. But the fragile German ego couldn't handle it. And of those terms imposed at Versailles Germany never even remotely payed any of it. I fact Germany took in more foreign loans then they ever paid back. In the 20s Germany basically managed to negotiate all those debts away and before they even paid the little they had left, they stopped paying. What was done to Germany after WW1 was NOT HARSH ENOUGH, and even what was agree on, was not enforced. > Putin came to power because the West didnt help the former Soviet republics Ask Estonia about how that. > If Russia is left alone humiliated again then we will have the next anti-western system in 10 years. They had an anti-western system for the waste majority of the last 300 years. If paying for their crimes with the London flats of of Russian oil millionaires then they will have to live with it.

te_chris 4y ago

That’s not a fact. It’s up to Russians and Russia what happens after this.

dandanua 4y ago

Yes, it's Ukraine must give up everything and pay reparations for russians - so they don't feel humiliated because of who they are. /s

elurg 4y ago

DennisP 4y ago

The worst that will happen to Russia is that they get pushed all the way out of the country they invaded, and maybe lose various assets they have in other foreign countries. Nobody's foolish enough to try to make Russia flat-out surrender, like Germany in WWI. Caution is certainly warranted but it doesn't seem productive to reward Russia for invading another country.

vincnetas 4y ago

So you say that WWII did not humiliate Germany? Can we do same to Russia then? What is your proposal to how not humiliate Russia? Russia already humiliated themselves by not wining this conflict for so long. In their book anything less than total conquest of Ukraine is humiliation.

misiti3780 4y ago
They said WWI. I assume they were referring to the Versaille Treaty
- panick21_ 4y ago
  Yes but the point the parent made was that after WW1 they were not restricted and it lead to WW2 and after WW2 it lead to the EU. So its pretty clear what strategy was better. In fact, the Republicans under Henry Cabot Lodge wanted exactly that, Germany had to be defeated and invaded. It was the only way to get lasting peace in Europe. And of course many in France like Foch wanted the same thing.
  - misiti3780 4y ago
    i agree

sudhirj 4y ago

More that sanctions or any other punishments must be focussed on the Putin regime and not the Russian population in general. And should end quickly if the regime changes.

ptnxlo 4y ago
Explain the difference between Putin's regime and the Russian population.

trhway 4y ago

> We had fantastic experience with humiliated nations before. It worked so well for Germany after WW1 /s The mistake was corrected after WWII by splitting the country into occupation zones. That is the only way to deal with Russia too. Pushing out of Ukraine isn't enough. Russia has to be demilitarized, most importantly - denuclearized, it should lose its place in UN Security Council. It also should be denazified - the current fascist regime must be totally dismantled, and the country must be split to avoid such regime coming back again. >Putin came to power because the West didnt help the former Soviet republics. Putin came to power because the "system", ie. KGB in particular wasn't dismantled, and because the further splitting up of the country was prevented. Whole world, including US, was afraid of appearance of several new smaller states, instead of just one big Russia, possessing nukes. Now, one can expect everybody learnt from that mistake made 30 years ago - this time the nukes need to be taken away completely and the country split. > the end of this war must be positive for the Russian people No. Only crushing humiliating defeat with the split of the country can reach into Russian brain and cure it from the "Great Russia chauvinism". Without such a process of cure, the monster will soon be back.

bryanlarsen 4y ago
Having this split happen through occupation would be a disaster. The west does not have anywhere near the manpower necessary to make this happen. The rule of thumb is that the occupying force needs to be 5% of the population, which means 9 million for Russia. However, it could happen naturally. If the Putin regime collapses it is quite likely that a clear successor widely seen as legitimate doesn't materialize. If so, the many autonomous regions of Russia with regional identity could declare independence and make it stick.
- trhway 4y ago
  Of course it can't be done through sheer brute force. One has to use an opportunity of Russia [almost] falling apart on its own like the one 30 years ago or the one that seems to come about right now. This time it comes at a huge cost to Ukrainians, and whether/when another such opportunity would come about and at what cost we don't know, so better to not lose the opportunity this time. >The west does not have anywhere near the manpower necessary to make this happen. One of the biggest occupying/controlling power for the biggest piece of territory - Far East and East Siberia - is China. And there is no need to actually occupy whole Russia. Only in Moscow and a bit of force (more like credible threat of it), and that is work for the West and Turkey, to make sure that nobody would prevent those autonomous regions going their own independent way (which in many cases would be just naturally falling into orbit of a near by big country like Turkey, Kazakhstan, China, Ukraine or a block like EU)

m000 4y ago

> the end of this war must be positive for the Russian people, no matter whether Russia loses or wins the military operation. I can see a plausible end that avoids ridicule on either side: - West will maintain that Putin meant to destroy Ukraine. So, limiting him to the new status-quo for Luhansk and Donetsk (whatever that would be) is a success. - Putin will claim that the target of the "military operation" was to make Luhansk and Donetsk safe for the Russian-speaking population there. The new status-quo provides for that. So the operation was a success.

dzhiurgis 4y ago

People deserve the government they have.

eternalban 4y ago
Are you referring to the new overt dart vader look in the city of brotherly love? Bring out the capes! (but this an international phenomena, so yeah, agreed.)

bigodbiel 4y ago

Soviet Russia after its collapse had a chance to integrate itself to the west. Even if neoliberal policies were attrocious (and they weren't exclusive to Russia, but to the whole developing world) during the 90's, its integration to the global division of labor is what allowed them to re-emerge and have rising standards of living, much higher than during Soviet times. But they still want revanchism and imperialism in the 21st c.?

panick21_ 4y ago
> neoliberal policies were attrocious They were not. The reality is that if you put all post-sovit countries on a graph and look at those that actually did neoliberal policies correctly, those are now the nations that are by far the most successful. Its not the fault of the West that the Russian elites were totally an completely corrupt and had no interest in real reform. Russia actually resisted many reforms and the elites simply put themselves in a position to take advantage. To just blame all of that on the West is nonsense.

panick21_ 4y ago

So much the same old historical nonsense still being propagated by people. > Oh yeah, super good idea. We had fantastic experience with humiliated nations before. It worked so well for Germany after WW1 /s Germany was not humiliated. The terms imposed on Germany were not actually as bad, the idea that these were some horrible terms come from a few British intellectuals and German Foreign office. Germany was treated with gloves of silk compared to how Germany treated France and Russia. But the fragile German ego couldn't handle it. And of those terms imposed at Versailles Germany never even remotely payed any of it. I fact Germany took in more foreign loans then they ever paid back. In the 20s Germany basically managed to negotiate all those debts away and before they even paid the little they had left, they stopped paying. What was done to Germany after WW1 was NOT HARSH ENOUGH, and even what was agree on, was not enforced. > Putin came to power because the West didnt help the former Soviet republics Ask Estonia about how that. > If Russia is left alone humiliated again then we will have the next anti-western system in 10 years. They had an anti-western system for the waste majority of the last 300 years. If paying for their crimes with the London flats of of Russian oil millionaires then they will have to live with it.