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You’ve said that the only alternative to fighting is being in a deathcamp. Please post proof of “deathcamps” in Ukraine where families are being systematically

by blub 4y ago

You’ve said that the only alternative to fighting is being in a deathcamp. Please post proof of “deathcamps” in Ukraine where families are being systematically murdered. I’m aware of filtration camps: https://www.hrw.org/report/2022/09/01/we-had-no-choice/filtration-and-crime-forcibly-transferring-ukrainian-civilians https://www.hrw.org/report/2022/09/01/we-had-no-choice/filtr...

tarasglek 4y ago
How about you provide proof that everything will be less violent under Russian occupation? Most detailed content on war is in Russian and Ukrainian though you might find something in NYT or WSJ. They work directly with sources on ground. International officials are preparing a report on Izium. They give previews in YouTube Livestreams so far ala https://youtu.be/2N696dD2NmY https://youtu.be/2N696dD2NmY Here is a text report in cleansing operations in Kherson https://nv.ua/ukraine/events/hersonskiy-zhurnalist-konstantin-ryzhenko-ob-okkupacii-hersona-intervyu-nv-novosti-ukrainy-50267149.html https://nv.ua/ukraine/events/hersonskiy-zhurnalist-konstanti... I don't mean a geographically restricted Nazi deathcamp. I mean whole country will be ruled by a mafia that executes you and your family when they don't like something in your past or present.
- ghostwriter 4y ago
  > I mean whole country will be ruled by a mafia that executes you and your family when they don't like something in your past or present. This is despicable indeed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oles_Buzina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oles_Buzina
  - tarasglek 4y ago
    What does this have to do with occupation? Assassinations are common in Russia too, as are false flag operations. See apartment bombings that led to second Chechen war.
    - ghostwriter 4y ago
      You’re just confirming there’s no difference between the regimes, really.
      - tarasglek 4y ago
        I am staying the opposite. This is a crime during peace time. Crimes during military occupation are on a different scale. Furthermore this could be an assassination by Russian foreign killers similar killings in UK
        ghostwriter 4y ago
        “Russia does it too” isn’t actually saying the opposite. > Furthermore this could be an assassination by Russian foreign killers similar killings in UK That’s what ukrainian investigators are refusing to establish, even though the family of the victim is demanding the official verdict, with no success: > The head of Ukrainian MIA Arsen Avakov has blamed a Ukrainian nationalist in the murder. All suspects were later released from custody with two (A. Medvedko and D. Polischuk) being placed under house arrest and one - cleared from all the charges. By April 2017 no progress was made in the murder investigation. On 28 November 2017, the case was forwarded from prosecution office into court, even though on 11 July 2016, it was reported a lot of major evidence, including photo robots of the suspects made by eye witnesses, CCTV footage and cell phone monitoring, has been lost from case materials.
    - foverzar 4y ago
      > See apartment bombings that led to second Chechen war. The Second Chechen war had started in August 1999 when Chechen militants invaded neighboring Dagestan (Russian territory), with random skirmishes starting as early as May 1999 The bombings you are referring to had happened in September 1999, like a month after the conflict had already escalated into a war. It's not hard to check the facts and timelines. Parroting every random legend or a conspiracy theory without critical thinking won't do you any good.
- blub 4y ago
  We can look at other countries which are under Russia’s influence or were attacked by Russia such as Georgia, Belarus or Ukraine in its two phases before 2014 and also before 2022. No deathcamps. In general occupation is less violent than a war by definition. I don’t doubt that they would purge the military and administration, but the outcome would be more or less “Russia” for the majority of the people. Corruption, poverty, abuses of power. Regarding your link, I don’t believe Ukrainian or Russian sources. They are propaganda organs of the state. When Amnesty International dared criticize Ukrainian war crimes it came under a torrent of abuse, one can imagine what kind of retribution a critical article from a local organization would receive… AFAIK foreign journalists don’t get any access either and have to make do with what they’re told.
  - tarasglek 4y ago
    None of the countries you mentioned were permanently occupied. Abhasia, LNR, DNR have all been clensed of opposition. LNR and DNR males are being forced into military operations like indentured servants of Russian empire. What news sources do you believe?
    - blub 4y ago
      Ukraine was strongly under Russia’s influence for most of its independent history. Given the behavior at the beginning of the invasion, it seems that the Russians were attempting a coup, likely followed by establishing some military presence, similar to Transnistria for example. Other countries like Eastern Germany, Romania, Poland, Bulgaria, etc were under Soviet occupation for decades. I believe that the absolute worst case would have looked like in those countries. The more likely case would be a coup, purge of political apparatus and military bases. I believe you’re talking about conscription in regards to the LPR and DPR. Yes, that’s bad, but to answer your question in the sibling comment… that’s war. Men have to fight whether they want it or not, unfortunately. Where can one read from an impartial organization about what happened in the DPR and LPR? Does cleansed mean killed, or that they fled or were arrested? According to https://mondediplo.com/2022/09/09donbass https://mondediplo.com/2022/09/09donbass life is as one would expect during war. Terrible…
  - 4y ago

by blub 4y ago

tarasglek 4y ago

How about you provide proof that everything will be less violent under Russian occupation? Most detailed content on war is in Russian and Ukrainian though you might find something in NYT or WSJ. They work directly with sources on ground. International officials are preparing a report on Izium. They give previews in YouTube Livestreams so far ala https://youtu.be/2N696dD2NmY https://youtu.be/2N696dD2NmY Here is a text report in cleansing operations in Kherson https://nv.ua/ukraine/events/hersonskiy-zhurnalist-konstantin-ryzhenko-ob-okkupacii-hersona-intervyu-nv-novosti-ukrainy-50267149.html https://nv.ua/ukraine/events/hersonskiy-zhurnalist-konstanti... I don't mean a geographically restricted Nazi deathcamp. I mean whole country will be ruled by a mafia that executes you and your family when they don't like something in your past or present.

ghostwriter 4y ago
> I mean whole country will be ruled by a mafia that executes you and your family when they don't like something in your past or present. This is despicable indeed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oles_Buzina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oles_Buzina
- tarasglek 4y ago
  What does this have to do with occupation? Assassinations are common in Russia too, as are false flag operations. See apartment bombings that led to second Chechen war.
  - ghostwriter 4y ago
    You’re just confirming there’s no difference between the regimes, really.
    - tarasglek 4y ago
      I am staying the opposite. This is a crime during peace time. Crimes during military occupation are on a different scale. Furthermore this could be an assassination by Russian foreign killers similar killings in UK
      - ghostwriter 4y ago
        “Russia does it too” isn’t actually saying the opposite. > Furthermore this could be an assassination by Russian foreign killers similar killings in UK That’s what ukrainian investigators are refusing to establish, even though the family of the victim is demanding the official verdict, with no success: > The head of Ukrainian MIA Arsen Avakov has blamed a Ukrainian nationalist in the murder. All suspects were later released from custody with two (A. Medvedko and D. Polischuk) being placed under house arrest and one - cleared from all the charges. By April 2017 no progress was made in the murder investigation. On 28 November 2017, the case was forwarded from prosecution office into court, even though on 11 July 2016, it was reported a lot of major evidence, including photo robots of the suspects made by eye witnesses, CCTV footage and cell phone monitoring, has been lost from case materials.
  - foverzar 4y ago
    > See apartment bombings that led to second Chechen war. The Second Chechen war had started in August 1999 when Chechen militants invaded neighboring Dagestan (Russian territory), with random skirmishes starting as early as May 1999 The bombings you are referring to had happened in September 1999, like a month after the conflict had already escalated into a war. It's not hard to check the facts and timelines. Parroting every random legend or a conspiracy theory without critical thinking won't do you any good.
blub 4y ago
We can look at other countries which are under Russia’s influence or were attacked by Russia such as Georgia, Belarus or Ukraine in its two phases before 2014 and also before 2022. No deathcamps. In general occupation is less violent than a war by definition. I don’t doubt that they would purge the military and administration, but the outcome would be more or less “Russia” for the majority of the people. Corruption, poverty, abuses of power. Regarding your link, I don’t believe Ukrainian or Russian sources. They are propaganda organs of the state. When Amnesty International dared criticize Ukrainian war crimes it came under a torrent of abuse, one can imagine what kind of retribution a critical article from a local organization would receive… AFAIK foreign journalists don’t get any access either and have to make do with what they’re told.
- tarasglek 4y ago
  None of the countries you mentioned were permanently occupied. Abhasia, LNR, DNR have all been clensed of opposition. LNR and DNR males are being forced into military operations like indentured servants of Russian empire. What news sources do you believe?
  - blub 4y ago
    Ukraine was strongly under Russia’s influence for most of its independent history. Given the behavior at the beginning of the invasion, it seems that the Russians were attempting a coup, likely followed by establishing some military presence, similar to Transnistria for example. Other countries like Eastern Germany, Romania, Poland, Bulgaria, etc were under Soviet occupation for decades. I believe that the absolute worst case would have looked like in those countries. The more likely case would be a coup, purge of political apparatus and military bases. I believe you’re talking about conscription in regards to the LPR and DPR. Yes, that’s bad, but to answer your question in the sibling comment… that’s war. Men have to fight whether they want it or not, unfortunately. Where can one read from an impartial organization about what happened in the DPR and LPR? Does cleansed mean killed, or that they fled or were arrested? According to https://mondediplo.com/2022/09/09donbass https://mondediplo.com/2022/09/09donbass life is as one would expect during war. Terrible…
- 4y ago