4 ms·

Considering the continuous escalation, Ukraine may end up in such a horrendous state, that it would make losing the war from the beginning look like an appealin

by blub 4y ago

Considering the continuous escalation, Ukraine may end up in such a horrendous state, that it would make losing the war from the beginning look like an appealing alternative. Not to mention the risk of nuclear extinction which is very high. I’ve read that most mechanisms developed to avoid exactly such a scenario were dismantled and the Russian and US government aren’t even on speaking terms. WTF are US and EU politicians thinking? The rhetoric was purposefully shaped into into an absolute victory or death, but the more realistic outcome would have been victory or end up like Belarus/Georgia.

tarasglek 4y ago
Would you rather be a slave with all your relatives in a deathcamp or fight the occupier to death? To give an analogy that Americans might understand: imagine that a drug cartel imposed martial law on USA. Constant torture, living in fear, millions of wasted lives. That's literally the situation in occupied territories(since 2012). I don't understand how people can think there will be less violence imposed on Ukrainians if they stop fighting. There is plenty of bloody evidence from Russian conflicts since 1990.
- hnthrway 4y ago
  I sincerely doubt Ukrainians would be slaves in death camps
- remarkEon 4y ago
  >To give an analogy that Americans might understand: imagine that a drug cartel... Your analogy is wrong, but some border towns might see it as familiar. The analogy you're looking for is more like if Mexico (as a Nation) declared war on the just the states in the US that used to be Mexican territory, and then used their internal drug cartels (that they tacitly let exist, and allow to force project into the continental United States) to help finance and facilitate the war. There's still a ton of things wrong with that analogy, but it's closer to what I think you mean if I'm steel-maning it.
  - tarasglek 4y ago
    Analogies are hard, I buy your version too. Only correction would be that a legalized form of the cartel runs the government in Mexico too My main point is that the legal system and various consequences in occupation are close to those in cartel land.
- blub 4y ago
  You’ve said that the only alternative to fighting is being in a deathcamp. Please post proof of “deathcamps” in Ukraine where families are being systematically murdered. I’m aware of filtration camps: https://www.hrw.org/report/2022/09/01/we-had-no-choice/filtration-and-crime-forcibly-transferring-ukrainian-civilians https://www.hrw.org/report/2022/09/01/we-had-no-choice/filtr...
  - tarasglek 4y ago
    How about you provide proof that everything will be less violent under Russian occupation? Most detailed content on war is in Russian and Ukrainian though you might find something in NYT or WSJ. They work directly with sources on ground. International officials are preparing a report on Izium. They give previews in YouTube Livestreams so far ala https://youtu.be/2N696dD2NmY https://youtu.be/2N696dD2NmY Here is a text report in cleansing operations in Kherson https://nv.ua/ukraine/events/hersonskiy-zhurnalist-konstantin-ryzhenko-ob-okkupacii-hersona-intervyu-nv-novosti-ukrainy-50267149.html https://nv.ua/ukraine/events/hersonskiy-zhurnalist-konstanti... I don't mean a geographically restricted Nazi deathcamp. I mean whole country will be ruled by a mafia that executes you and your family when they don't like something in your past or present.
    - ghostwriter 4y ago
      > I mean whole country will be ruled by a mafia that executes you and your family when they don't like something in your past or present. This is despicable indeed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oles_Buzina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oles_Buzina
      - tarasglek 4y ago
        What does this have to do with occupation? Assassinations are common in Russia too, as are false flag operations. See apartment bombings that led to second Chechen war.
        ghostwriter 4y ago
- rightbyte 4y ago
  > Would you rather be a slave with all your relatives in a deathcamp or fight the occupier to death? Sounds awfully absolutist.
  - tarasglek 4y ago
    You know I drive past destruction caused by Russian rockets every day. Talk to people who visit Frontline towns. I think it's ok to have strong opionions. What's it like to tell victims of agression how they should feel about it?
    - foverzar 4y ago
      No one tells you how to feel, it's just hard to take you seriously.
- foverzar 4y ago
  > Would you rather be a slave with all your relatives in a deathcamp or fight the occupier to death? That's not the real question at hand. There are no deathcamps or slavery IRL and everyone who is not exulted by propaganda and actually has to care for their own skin understands that. > There is plenty of bloody evidence from Russian conflicts since 1990. Like what? I don't understand how people can think there will be less violence imposed on Ukrainians if they are supported by a certain someone with actually plenty of bloody evidence of staging, escalating and participating in wars all over the world.
  - tarasglek 4y ago
    > That's not the real question at hand. There are no deathcamps or slavery IRL and everyone who is not exulted by propaganda and actually has to care for their own skin understands that. See bit about all working age men in LNR/DNR being thrown poorly equipped into battle. There is also evidence of farmers being forced to work occupied land for free. What do you call that if not slavery? >> There is plenty of bloody evidence from Russian conflicts since 1990. > Like what? Already mentioned this elsewhere in thread.
    - foverzar 4y ago
      > See bit about all working age men in LNR/DNR being thrown poorly equipped into battle That's not deathcamps. Same argument could be made for Ukrainian conscripts being thrown into battle just as poorly equipped. And it still wouldn't be deathcamps. > There is also evidence of farmers being forced to work occupied land for free. A solid one? I've already seen enough "evidence" of Russians eating babies and stealing asphalt and toilets. > Already mentioned this elsewhere in thread. Sorry, if there are no specifics, I won't be trying to guess. Post-Soviet military frictions due to completely idiotically handled dissolution process are so full of myths and legends and are such a complex topic, that in practice most people have no actual idea. Take for example Georgia of 2008, for which the "common knowledge" is so vastly different from the UN investigation conclusion.

by blub 4y ago

tarasglek 4y ago

Would you rather be a slave with all your relatives in a deathcamp or fight the occupier to death? To give an analogy that Americans might understand: imagine that a drug cartel imposed martial law on USA. Constant torture, living in fear, millions of wasted lives. That's literally the situation in occupied territories(since 2012). I don't understand how people can think there will be less violence imposed on Ukrainians if they stop fighting. There is plenty of bloody evidence from Russian conflicts since 1990.

hnthrway 4y ago
I sincerely doubt Ukrainians would be slaves in death camps
remarkEon 4y ago
>To give an analogy that Americans might understand: imagine that a drug cartel... Your analogy is wrong, but some border towns might see it as familiar. The analogy you're looking for is more like if Mexico (as a Nation) declared war on the just the states in the US that used to be Mexican territory, and then used their internal drug cartels (that they tacitly let exist, and allow to force project into the continental United States) to help finance and facilitate the war. There's still a ton of things wrong with that analogy, but it's closer to what I think you mean if I'm steel-maning it.
- tarasglek 4y ago
  Analogies are hard, I buy your version too. Only correction would be that a legalized form of the cartel runs the government in Mexico too My main point is that the legal system and various consequences in occupation are close to those in cartel land.
blub 4y ago
You’ve said that the only alternative to fighting is being in a deathcamp. Please post proof of “deathcamps” in Ukraine where families are being systematically murdered. I’m aware of filtration camps: https://www.hrw.org/report/2022/09/01/we-had-no-choice/filtration-and-crime-forcibly-transferring-ukrainian-civilians https://www.hrw.org/report/2022/09/01/we-had-no-choice/filtr...
- tarasglek 4y ago
  How about you provide proof that everything will be less violent under Russian occupation? Most detailed content on war is in Russian and Ukrainian though you might find something in NYT or WSJ. They work directly with sources on ground. International officials are preparing a report on Izium. They give previews in YouTube Livestreams so far ala https://youtu.be/2N696dD2NmY https://youtu.be/2N696dD2NmY Here is a text report in cleansing operations in Kherson https://nv.ua/ukraine/events/hersonskiy-zhurnalist-konstantin-ryzhenko-ob-okkupacii-hersona-intervyu-nv-novosti-ukrainy-50267149.html https://nv.ua/ukraine/events/hersonskiy-zhurnalist-konstanti... I don't mean a geographically restricted Nazi deathcamp. I mean whole country will be ruled by a mafia that executes you and your family when they don't like something in your past or present.
  - ghostwriter 4y ago
    > I mean whole country will be ruled by a mafia that executes you and your family when they don't like something in your past or present. This is despicable indeed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oles_Buzina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oles_Buzina
    - tarasglek 4y ago
      What does this have to do with occupation? Assassinations are common in Russia too, as are false flag operations. See apartment bombings that led to second Chechen war.
      - ghostwriter 4y ago
rightbyte 4y ago
> Would you rather be a slave with all your relatives in a deathcamp or fight the occupier to death? Sounds awfully absolutist.
- tarasglek 4y ago
  You know I drive past destruction caused by Russian rockets every day. Talk to people who visit Frontline towns. I think it's ok to have strong opionions. What's it like to tell victims of agression how they should feel about it?
  - foverzar 4y ago
    No one tells you how to feel, it's just hard to take you seriously.
foverzar 4y ago
> Would you rather be a slave with all your relatives in a deathcamp or fight the occupier to death? That's not the real question at hand. There are no deathcamps or slavery IRL and everyone who is not exulted by propaganda and actually has to care for their own skin understands that. > There is plenty of bloody evidence from Russian conflicts since 1990. Like what? I don't understand how people can think there will be less violence imposed on Ukrainians if they are supported by a certain someone with actually plenty of bloody evidence of staging, escalating and participating in wars all over the world.
- tarasglek 4y ago
  > That's not the real question at hand. There are no deathcamps or slavery IRL and everyone who is not exulted by propaganda and actually has to care for their own skin understands that. See bit about all working age men in LNR/DNR being thrown poorly equipped into battle. There is also evidence of farmers being forced to work occupied land for free. What do you call that if not slavery? >> There is plenty of bloody evidence from Russian conflicts since 1990. > Like what? Already mentioned this elsewhere in thread.
  - foverzar 4y ago
    > See bit about all working age men in LNR/DNR being thrown poorly equipped into battle That's not deathcamps. Same argument could be made for Ukrainian conscripts being thrown into battle just as poorly equipped. And it still wouldn't be deathcamps. > There is also evidence of farmers being forced to work occupied land for free. A solid one? I've already seen enough "evidence" of Russians eating babies and stealing asphalt and toilets. > Already mentioned this elsewhere in thread. Sorry, if there are no specifics, I won't be trying to guess. Post-Soviet military frictions due to completely idiotically handled dissolution process are so full of myths and legends and are such a complex topic, that in practice most people have no actual idea. Take for example Georgia of 2008, for which the "common knowledge" is so vastly different from the UN investigation conclusion.