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So, to limit our problem a bit, let's create a nice little geofence around our robot cars. We'll limit the physical environment changes in this area, build in

So, to limit our problem a bit, let's create a nice little geofence around our robot cars. We'll limit the physical environment changes in this area, build in some barriers, limit pedestrian traffic, protect wildlife crossings, maybe build in some weather protection systems so our robots don't have to drive on the snow. Why stop there? Let's build a special track for these robots since tires are pretty bad in terms of environmental impact and physical stress on roads. We can also make them longer so they hold a lot more people, and automate payment systems at the egress points, maybe add in some turnstiles. Congratulations, we've just reinvented trains. Maybe we could just build some of those?

Akronymus 4y ago
> maybe add in some turnstiles. turnstiles are pretty annoying and don't actually help that much, if at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-X25pH1XQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-X25pH1XQ
msla 4y ago
OK, you build trains from Sidney, Montana, to Lewistown. I'm not interested in self-driving cars, but thinking trains solve all problems is a very narrow, urban view.
- alex_young 4y ago
  There is existing rail connecting both of those towns according to https://www.openrailwaymap.org/ https://www.openrailwaymap.org/ I'd also point out that these are 2 towns with less than 6000 population each, in one of the lowest population density parts of the country, with one of the worst climates for self driving cars. In many European countries there are vast networks of trains connecting small towns with larger cities. Is there a good reason we can't do the same here?
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    In Europe, 100 miles is far, and in America, 100 years is a long time. The European towns you are referring to are usually a lot closer together than American towns.
- noahtallen 4y ago
  I’m not sure it’s a very narrow view. 80% of the US lives in an urban area. Rural areas are also already serviced by rail for cargo. I don’t think OP is suggesting trains solve all problems. But they certainly solve more problems than we currently use them for in the US.
- dendrite9 4y ago
  I don't think trains have to just be an urban thing. Maybe you wont get a train stop in McDermitt, NV or Loa, UT or Mackay, ID but there are plenty of places with higher density than that. It took me a long time to realize the history of the various interurban trails I've seen. This tweet I saw recently has some interesting maps of the networks of people focused rail to even small towns near Boston. https://twitter.com/FischermanDan/status/1571919260661809152 https://twitter.com/FischermanDan/status/1571919260661809152 It's a response to this: https://nitter.net/grescoe/status/1571863398366973960#m https://nitter.net/grescoe/status/1571863398366973960#m "By 1920, the network of interurbans in the US was so dense that a determined commuter could hop interlinked streetcars from Waterville, Maine, to Sheboygan, Wisconsin—a journey of 1,000 miles—exclusively by electric trolley. The tracks, and often the wires, extended deep into forest and farmland, making the railroads de facto intercity highways; after nightfall in the countryside, farmers would signal drivers to stop by burning a rag next to the track. Streetcars and interurbans became the dominant mode of urban transportation in North America, carrying 11 billion passengers a year by the end of the First World War."
  - Tangurena2 4y ago
    Before WW1, companies building housing developments used to also build tram lines so that people could commute to jobs in the city from those new homes. Post-WW2, building suburbs without any sort of public transit was an additional way to discriminate against "the poors" as virtually all of those suburbs had race & religion restriction covenants in the property deeds.
NegativeLatency 4y ago
Pretty clear at this point that self driving and electric are here to save the car/road building industry not society. Makes me so frustrated that I have to drive/own a car to be a "full" citizen in the US, I really hope other options start to become more viable/mainstream in my lifetime. (As I'm sure someone will love to point out, yes there are things that cars are good at, rural areas etc, but there are lots of ways that cars have been misapplied in our society currently, and there are other cheaper, better, more fun options.)
- 10u152 4y ago
  Wouldn’t you say that electric cars are here to stay because they fit into the existing lifestyle/infrastructure? The road building industry point is mostly moot as most large civil construction companies generally also do rail projects and could pivot into the expansion of rail systems.
- jmoak3 4y ago
  If self driving cars are completed you can kiss human scale urbanism and suburbanism goodbye. 2 hour commutes from the woods will become normalized IMO
  - pjc50 4y ago
    Why stop there? The only limit is the recharge range of the car, which is not consumed by being stuck in traffic. If you can nap during the commute, why not extend it to three or four hours? Many places make it illegal to live in your car - but only while parked. What about living in your car while stuck in a traffic jam?
space_fountain 4y ago
Trains are a great solution to move loads of people between population centers and they’re an ok solution to moving loads of people downtown. They do start to suffer when you want to move people between basically random points in a city. I am all on board for fully automated micro trains though
- codesnik 4y ago
  so, trams?
  - space_fountain 4y ago
    Well without schedules or defined routes
    - sottol 4y ago
      Weird, schedules and defined routes plus some walking or biking used to work for many people. But that requires different attitudes.
      - space_fountain 4y ago
        I think that’s fair, but we do sort of have to live in the real world. Do you have a theory of how we convince people to go back to that? Personally I think with the future we can do better, but idk
        ben_w 4y ago
        Here in Berlin I don't think people really stopped doing this. The tram line going past my apartment has vehicles every 5 minutes in the weekday daytime, so that probably helps.
      - Akronymus 4y ago
        You can do without schedules if they are frequent enough (as in, people don't have to check the schedule) This is one thing that seems to be severly lacking in the US, afaict. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muPcHs-E4qc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muPcHs-E4qc
theamk 4y ago
The key difference between trains and L5 vehicles is that once you leave geofenced area, your transport becomes a regular car than can immediately drive anywhere. This saves you a ton of time compared to train travel, especially on a shorter trips. The closest thing in the train world would be car-carrying trains... and apparently Amtrak does have "auto train" for a pretty reasonable price ($180 for 18 hour trip): https://www.amtrak.com/routes/auto-train.html https://www.amtrak.com/routes/auto-train.html Too bad they only have one auto-train line in the US, that would be an interesting way to travel.
im3w1l 4y ago
With the electricity catastrophe, tolerance for smug environmentalists is at an all time low. Your "congratulations" is grating. Trains are unable to handle last mile goods-transportation. Just like people like having power in their outlet, they like having food in their grocery stores and if mess that one up then their will be unrest the likes of which have not been seen in generations.
- ben_w 4y ago
  What, and where, is this electricity catastrophe? There's a gas supply problem right now in Europe, but I've not heard anything about an electricity supply problem except where the gas prices are a major part of that.
  - im3w1l 4y ago
    California has regular issues too. They narrowly avoided rolling blackouts just a few weeks ago. They did briefly shut off power to some customers. And the governor had to beg people to turn up the thermostat.

Akronymus 4y ago

> maybe add in some turnstiles. turnstiles are pretty annoying and don't actually help that much, if at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-X25pH1XQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-X25pH1XQ

msla 4y ago

OK, you build trains from Sidney, Montana, to Lewistown. I'm not interested in self-driving cars, but thinking trains solve all problems is a very narrow, urban view.

alex_young 4y ago
There is existing rail connecting both of those towns according to https://www.openrailwaymap.org/ https://www.openrailwaymap.org/ I'd also point out that these are 2 towns with less than 6000 population each, in one of the lowest population density parts of the country, with one of the worst climates for self driving cars. In many European countries there are vast networks of trains connecting small towns with larger cities. Is there a good reason we can't do the same here?
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  In Europe, 100 miles is far, and in America, 100 years is a long time. The European towns you are referring to are usually a lot closer together than American towns.
noahtallen 4y ago
I’m not sure it’s a very narrow view. 80% of the US lives in an urban area. Rural areas are also already serviced by rail for cargo. I don’t think OP is suggesting trains solve all problems. But they certainly solve more problems than we currently use them for in the US.
dendrite9 4y ago
I don't think trains have to just be an urban thing. Maybe you wont get a train stop in McDermitt, NV or Loa, UT or Mackay, ID but there are plenty of places with higher density than that. It took me a long time to realize the history of the various interurban trails I've seen. This tweet I saw recently has some interesting maps of the networks of people focused rail to even small towns near Boston. https://twitter.com/FischermanDan/status/1571919260661809152 https://twitter.com/FischermanDan/status/1571919260661809152 It's a response to this: https://nitter.net/grescoe/status/1571863398366973960#m https://nitter.net/grescoe/status/1571863398366973960#m "By 1920, the network of interurbans in the US was so dense that a determined commuter could hop interlinked streetcars from Waterville, Maine, to Sheboygan, Wisconsin—a journey of 1,000 miles—exclusively by electric trolley. The tracks, and often the wires, extended deep into forest and farmland, making the railroads de facto intercity highways; after nightfall in the countryside, farmers would signal drivers to stop by burning a rag next to the track. Streetcars and interurbans became the dominant mode of urban transportation in North America, carrying 11 billion passengers a year by the end of the First World War."
- Tangurena2 4y ago
  Before WW1, companies building housing developments used to also build tram lines so that people could commute to jobs in the city from those new homes. Post-WW2, building suburbs without any sort of public transit was an additional way to discriminate against "the poors" as virtually all of those suburbs had race & religion restriction covenants in the property deeds.

NegativeLatency 4y ago

Pretty clear at this point that self driving and electric are here to save the car/road building industry not society. Makes me so frustrated that I have to drive/own a car to be a "full" citizen in the US, I really hope other options start to become more viable/mainstream in my lifetime. (As I'm sure someone will love to point out, yes there are things that cars are good at, rural areas etc, but there are lots of ways that cars have been misapplied in our society currently, and there are other cheaper, better, more fun options.)

10u152 4y ago
Wouldn’t you say that electric cars are here to stay because they fit into the existing lifestyle/infrastructure? The road building industry point is mostly moot as most large civil construction companies generally also do rail projects and could pivot into the expansion of rail systems.
jmoak3 4y ago
If self driving cars are completed you can kiss human scale urbanism and suburbanism goodbye. 2 hour commutes from the woods will become normalized IMO
- pjc50 4y ago
  Why stop there? The only limit is the recharge range of the car, which is not consumed by being stuck in traffic. If you can nap during the commute, why not extend it to three or four hours? Many places make it illegal to live in your car - but only while parked. What about living in your car while stuck in a traffic jam?

space_fountain 4y ago

Trains are a great solution to move loads of people between population centers and they’re an ok solution to moving loads of people downtown. They do start to suffer when you want to move people between basically random points in a city. I am all on board for fully automated micro trains though

codesnik 4y ago
so, trams?
- space_fountain 4y ago
  Well without schedules or defined routes
  - sottol 4y ago
    Weird, schedules and defined routes plus some walking or biking used to work for many people. But that requires different attitudes.
    - space_fountain 4y ago
      I think that’s fair, but we do sort of have to live in the real world. Do you have a theory of how we convince people to go back to that? Personally I think with the future we can do better, but idk
      - ben_w 4y ago
        Here in Berlin I don't think people really stopped doing this. The tram line going past my apartment has vehicles every 5 minutes in the weekday daytime, so that probably helps.
    - Akronymus 4y ago
      You can do without schedules if they are frequent enough (as in, people don't have to check the schedule) This is one thing that seems to be severly lacking in the US, afaict. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muPcHs-E4qc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muPcHs-E4qc

theamk 4y ago

The key difference between trains and L5 vehicles is that once you leave geofenced area, your transport becomes a regular car than can immediately drive anywhere. This saves you a ton of time compared to train travel, especially on a shorter trips. The closest thing in the train world would be car-carrying trains... and apparently Amtrak does have "auto train" for a pretty reasonable price ($180 for 18 hour trip): https://www.amtrak.com/routes/auto-train.html https://www.amtrak.com/routes/auto-train.html Too bad they only have one auto-train line in the US, that would be an interesting way to travel.

im3w1l 4y ago

With the electricity catastrophe, tolerance for smug environmentalists is at an all time low. Your "congratulations" is grating. Trains are unable to handle last mile goods-transportation. Just like people like having power in their outlet, they like having food in their grocery stores and if mess that one up then their will be unrest the likes of which have not been seen in generations.

ben_w 4y ago
What, and where, is this electricity catastrophe? There's a gas supply problem right now in Europe, but I've not heard anything about an electricity supply problem except where the gas prices are a major part of that.
- im3w1l 4y ago
  California has regular issues too. They narrowly avoided rolling blackouts just a few weeks ago. They did briefly shut off power to some customers. And the governor had to beg people to turn up the thermostat.