5 ms·

Please don't misinterpret my words. You asked what's wrong with 'collective guilt' and I answered that using this justification is the slippery slope towards "

by gdy 4y ago

Please don't misinterpret my words. You asked what's wrong with 'collective guilt' and I answered that using this justification is the slippery slope towards "collective punishment" that includes "failing to recognize between combatants and non-combatants". I never said that denying visas is "failing to recognize between combatants and non-combatants". But I can give you an example: I've seen many times the calls to stop the export of medicaments to Russia thus killing or disabling most vulnerable civilians [0]. [0] https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/970136 https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/970136

jevgeni 4y ago
You literally set the subject: > And how is visa ban justified?
- gdy 4y ago
  You didn't quote my comment fully and left out "Just curious how you would manage to avoid the words 'collective guilt'." That was dishonest.
  - jevgeni 4y ago
    Communicate better. To reitterate: > Denying visas is not "failing to recognize between combatants and non-combatants". It is denying a privilege that the russian government has messed up for their own citizens. EU or USA don't owe you anything. The russian government does.
    - gdy 4y ago
      Again a strawman.
      - jevgeni 4y ago
        I'm not interested in talking about collective guilt until you acknowledge how it impacted Germany. Everything else is just you whining about loosing your privilege.
        gdy 4y ago
        It 'reeducated' Germans in profound way, but before that it led to a lot of war crimes towards civilian German population. Now, where is collective Ukrainian guilt for the genocide of Poles and Jews during WW2 on part of Ukrainian Insurgent Army? Looks like it's absent, Ukrainian ambassador to Germany compared Bandera with Robin Hood to the disgust of Germans, Poles and Jews. [0] [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-07-07/stepan-bandera-is-the-wrong-hero-in-ukraine-s-valiant-flight-against-russia https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-07-07/stepan...
        jevgeni 4y ago
        Really? Which war crimes and which war? Oh look, a (presumably) russian lecturing me about my country’s history with an OPINION piece, while simultaneously knowing dick-didly about it. Receipts: https://m.knesset.gov.il/EN/activity/Documents/SpeechPdf/Poroshenko.pdf https://m.knesset.gov.il/EN/activity/Documents/SpeechPdf/Por... https://www.rferl.org/a/1068362.html https://www.rferl.org/a/1068362.html
        gdy 4y ago
        I gave you this link as a source for the statement of the Ukrainian envoy in Germany about Bandera being like Robin Hood. Perhaps, you will like Israeli [0] and German [1] news more. "The statement made by the Ukrainian ambassador is a distortion of the historical facts, belittles the Holocaust and is an insult to those who were murdered by Bandera and his people," the Israeli embassy said. Polish deputy Foreign Minister Marcin Przydacz wrote on a local online platform that "such an opinion and such words are absolutely unacceptable." And if you want historical information about Ukrainian Insurgent Army, I gave you wikipedia link in another comment here. [0] https://www.israelnews.net/news/272606794/ukrainian-envoy-likens-nazi-collaborator-to-robin-hood https://www.israelnews.net/news/272606794/ukrainian-envoy-li... [1] https://www.dw.com/en/ukraines-envoy-to-germany-irks-israeli-polish-governments-with-wwii-comments/a-62335288 https://www.dw.com/en/ukraines-envoy-to-germany-irks-israeli...
        4y ago

by gdy 4y ago

jevgeni 4y ago

You literally set the subject: > And how is visa ban justified?

gdy 4y ago
You didn't quote my comment fully and left out "Just curious how you would manage to avoid the words 'collective guilt'." That was dishonest.
- jevgeni 4y ago
  Communicate better. To reitterate: > Denying visas is not "failing to recognize between combatants and non-combatants". It is denying a privilege that the russian government has messed up for their own citizens. EU or USA don't owe you anything. The russian government does.
  - gdy 4y ago
    Again a strawman.
    - jevgeni 4y ago
      I'm not interested in talking about collective guilt until you acknowledge how it impacted Germany. Everything else is just you whining about loosing your privilege.
      - gdy 4y ago
        It 'reeducated' Germans in profound way, but before that it led to a lot of war crimes towards civilian German population. Now, where is collective Ukrainian guilt for the genocide of Poles and Jews during WW2 on part of Ukrainian Insurgent Army? Looks like it's absent, Ukrainian ambassador to Germany compared Bandera with Robin Hood to the disgust of Germans, Poles and Jews. [0] [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-07-07/stepan-bandera-is-the-wrong-hero-in-ukraine-s-valiant-flight-against-russia https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-07-07/stepan...
        jevgeni 4y ago
        Really? Which war crimes and which war? Oh look, a (presumably) russian lecturing me about my country’s history with an OPINION piece, while simultaneously knowing dick-didly about it. Receipts: https://m.knesset.gov.il/EN/activity/Documents/SpeechPdf/Poroshenko.pdf https://m.knesset.gov.il/EN/activity/Documents/SpeechPdf/Por... https://www.rferl.org/a/1068362.html https://www.rferl.org/a/1068362.html
        gdy 4y ago
        I gave you this link as a source for the statement of the Ukrainian envoy in Germany about Bandera being like Robin Hood. Perhaps, you will like Israeli [0] and German [1] news more. "The statement made by the Ukrainian ambassador is a distortion of the historical facts, belittles the Holocaust and is an insult to those who were murdered by Bandera and his people," the Israeli embassy said. Polish deputy Foreign Minister Marcin Przydacz wrote on a local online platform that "such an opinion and such words are absolutely unacceptable." And if you want historical information about Ukrainian Insurgent Army, I gave you wikipedia link in another comment here. [0] https://www.israelnews.net/news/272606794/ukrainian-envoy-likens-nazi-collaborator-to-robin-hood https://www.israelnews.net/news/272606794/ukrainian-envoy-li... [1] https://www.dw.com/en/ukraines-envoy-to-germany-irks-israeli-polish-governments-with-wwii-comments/a-62335288 https://www.dw.com/en/ukraines-envoy-to-germany-irks-israeli...
        4y ago