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It's not about blame. Stock/debt ownership isn't just an opportunity it's also a responsibility. You own the means of production. The customers do not. If you

by kurthr 4y ago

It's not about blame. Stock/debt ownership isn't just an opportunity it's also a responsibility. You own the means of production. The customers do not. If you want to embed the capital costs (and not just the marginal costs of production) into products you have a much bigger amortization problem. Do you do it on the first sale so the first Tesla generates a billion metric tons of carbon, the first 10 years, the first million, retroactively? What about companies that never sell a product, but consume billions of $$ in R&D? Do the employees own that, or the owners, or society as a whole?

s1artibartfast 4y ago
you run into the same amortization problem with the means of production. When and to whom is the imbedded energy cost assigned? Does it follow each stock sale? Does some of the energy stay with someone if they trade a stock for a profit? Is it continuously updated in real time as more energy is consumed by the company? If you can figure all of that out for the owner, you can certainly recalculate the carbon footprint of a tesla in real time. In my opinion, carbon footprint follows the inventory. It is on your books until someone buys the good or service.
- kurthr 4y ago
  No amortization problem, it follows the ownership/stock sale, just like your house or your car, a gallon of gasoline, or anything else you buy/sell. So when you sell your stock the embedded value/energy goes with it. If you received dividends, and spent it then that probably had some embedded energy too. If you have money in the bank, then that earns interest which you'll spend/save, and if you own Gov bonds then you own part of the government, which has spent lots directly on concrete and oil. None of that concrete is free (you could argue they should get credits for all the un-cut trees grown on federal land though). Even donations to charity have carbon footprint. Imagine you give to a charity that pays gas bills for poor people. Those people didn't buy that oil/gas. The one giving to charity did. You earn money, you spend money, you save money, you give away money... that money gets spent on objects with embedded carbon. Unless you want to say that corporations get a free pass, or the government gets a free pass, or banks get a free pass, or wealthy people get a free pass. Just like taxes... maybe the monarchy gets a free pass? Now there's still a way to game it, which is to have your company pay for everything. Just like cheating on your taxes, if you have no income and everything is held in a corp, then whoever holds the corp owns your carbon production.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    I just don't buy it. By that logic, as long as I don't own a company I have no carbon footprint if I drive a Hummer everyday, have my meals flown in from France, and lease a power hungry mansion. After all, the Hummers carbon footprint belongs to the auto manufacturer and oil company, the footprint of the flights belong to the airline company, and the owner of the mansion is responsible for my extravagance. I'm not responsible for my carbon because the companies are the ones that sold me all these things I enjoy

by kurthr 4y ago

s1artibartfast 4y ago

you run into the same amortization problem with the means of production. When and to whom is the imbedded energy cost assigned? Does it follow each stock sale? Does some of the energy stay with someone if they trade a stock for a profit? Is it continuously updated in real time as more energy is consumed by the company? If you can figure all of that out for the owner, you can certainly recalculate the carbon footprint of a tesla in real time. In my opinion, carbon footprint follows the inventory. It is on your books until someone buys the good or service.

kurthr 4y ago
No amortization problem, it follows the ownership/stock sale, just like your house or your car, a gallon of gasoline, or anything else you buy/sell. So when you sell your stock the embedded value/energy goes with it. If you received dividends, and spent it then that probably had some embedded energy too. If you have money in the bank, then that earns interest which you'll spend/save, and if you own Gov bonds then you own part of the government, which has spent lots directly on concrete and oil. None of that concrete is free (you could argue they should get credits for all the un-cut trees grown on federal land though). Even donations to charity have carbon footprint. Imagine you give to a charity that pays gas bills for poor people. Those people didn't buy that oil/gas. The one giving to charity did. You earn money, you spend money, you save money, you give away money... that money gets spent on objects with embedded carbon. Unless you want to say that corporations get a free pass, or the government gets a free pass, or banks get a free pass, or wealthy people get a free pass. Just like taxes... maybe the monarchy gets a free pass? Now there's still a way to game it, which is to have your company pay for everything. Just like cheating on your taxes, if you have no income and everything is held in a corp, then whoever holds the corp owns your carbon production.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  I just don't buy it. By that logic, as long as I don't own a company I have no carbon footprint if I drive a Hummer everyday, have my meals flown in from France, and lease a power hungry mansion. After all, the Hummers carbon footprint belongs to the auto manufacturer and oil company, the footprint of the flights belong to the airline company, and the owner of the mansion is responsible for my extravagance. I'm not responsible for my carbon because the companies are the ones that sold me all these things I enjoy