4 ms·

Couldn’t Texas exit the US in the same way that European countries can exit the EU?

by Longhanks 4y ago

anony999 4y ago
Technically the answer is yes. In practice I believe there would be civil war before that happens.
- IntrepidWorm 4y ago
  If the threat of secession requires going to war over, it would seem that no, secession is not a legally supported process.
  - Archelaos 4y ago
    But could it not be possible to allow the secession of a state by an ammentment to the constition?
    - lstodd 4y ago
      Why bother? If things went so far that the secession is desired it is already a civil war, and constitution of 'some people out there over the creek' doesn't matter. I think that was the lesson of the 1860s.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  > Technically the answer is yes. Really? You mean that there is something in the US Constitution that explicitly allows a state to secede? "In the public debate over the Nullification Crisis the separate issue of secession was also discussed. James Madison, often referred to as "The Father of the Constitution", strongly opposed the argument that secession was permitted by the Constitution.[29] In a March 15, 1833, letter to Daniel Webster (congratulating him on a speech opposing nullification), Madison discussed "revolution" versus "secession": I return my thanks for the copy of your late very powerful Speech in the Senate of the United S. It crushes "nullification" and must hasten the abandonment of "Secession". But this dodges the blow by confounding the claim to secede at will, with the right of seceding from intolerable oppression. The former answers itself, being a violation, without cause, of a faith solemnly pledged. The latter is another name only for revolution, about which there is no theoretic controversy." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States
gpderetta 4y ago
EU treaties explicitly say that a member can leave them (in particular article 50 of the Treaty of the EU). In general a country can't get out of an international treaty unless the treaty itself has provisions for it. Of course the only way to enforce an international treaty, if threats or sanctions are not enough, is war.
jfk13 4y ago
Some states tried that in the 1860s. It was traumatic.
ben_w 4y ago
No, the EU has a specific process for leaving by asking, while the US states can only leave if a sufficient number of the other states agree to it. The EU isn't really a country, it's a free trade agreement with an unusually democratic (by the standard of FTAs) process for updating its own rules.
- M2Ys4U 4y ago
  >The EU isn't really a country, it's a free trade agreement with an unusually democratic (by the standard of FTAs) process for updating its own rules. The EU isn't just a free trade agreement and it has never been just a free trade agreement. It has always been a political endeavour. Of course that doesn't make it a country or a nation state at all, but let's not go too far in the other direction when trying to describe it.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    Every free trade agreement is a political endeavour. The entire concept of free trade is in part where the term "liberal" originates from (not that the term should be considered a guide to current policies of parties with that title, lots has changed since it was Liberals vs Whigs).
- bhupy 4y ago
  The EU isn't a country (yet), but it's a political union that increasingly walks and quacks like a country. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lj127TKu4Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lj127TKu4Q
- effie 4y ago
  Indeed it is not a country. But democratic process is a very wrong word here, even with the adjective "representative". The EU process for updating its own rules is a bureaucracy directed by prime ministers, and those influenced/controlled by powerful groups. E.g. Scholz and Macron pushing for federalization and weakening the power of states - this is great for EU apparatus and those wanting to make it stronger, but state citizens do not want this.
arlort 4y ago
No There is no codified legal process for a US state to leave the Union, and the only previous attempt caused a civil war A member of the EU has both an implicit right to withdraw from the treaties (deriving from international customary law around treaties) and an explicit legal path to follow. A process which they control in their entirety (as in they can't be forced to stay longer than they wish by the other countries and can't be forced to leave earlier than the prescribed deadline)
sveme 4y ago
Out of curiosity: can Swiss cantons leave the Swiss confederation?
- Archelaos 4y ago
  The 26 cantons are mentioned in the Swiss constitution by name. If one wants to leave, the constitution would have to be changed. So a canton can only leave, if a majority of the whole people as well as the cantons voted in favour.

Couldn’t Texas exit the US in the same way that European countries can exit the EU?

anony999 4y ago

Technically the answer is yes. In practice I believe there would be civil war before that happens.

IntrepidWorm 4y ago
If the threat of secession requires going to war over, it would seem that no, secession is not a legally supported process.
- Archelaos 4y ago
  But could it not be possible to allow the secession of a state by an ammentment to the constition?
  - lstodd 4y ago
    Why bother? If things went so far that the secession is desired it is already a civil war, and constitution of 'some people out there over the creek' doesn't matter. I think that was the lesson of the 1860s.
kwhitefoot 4y ago
> Technically the answer is yes. Really? You mean that there is something in the US Constitution that explicitly allows a state to secede? "In the public debate over the Nullification Crisis the separate issue of secession was also discussed. James Madison, often referred to as "The Father of the Constitution", strongly opposed the argument that secession was permitted by the Constitution.[29] In a March 15, 1833, letter to Daniel Webster (congratulating him on a speech opposing nullification), Madison discussed "revolution" versus "secession": I return my thanks for the copy of your late very powerful Speech in the Senate of the United S. It crushes "nullification" and must hasten the abandonment of "Secession". But this dodges the blow by confounding the claim to secede at will, with the right of seceding from intolerable oppression. The former answers itself, being a violation, without cause, of a faith solemnly pledged. The latter is another name only for revolution, about which there is no theoretic controversy." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States

gpderetta 4y ago

EU treaties explicitly say that a member can leave them (in particular article 50 of the Treaty of the EU). In general a country can't get out of an international treaty unless the treaty itself has provisions for it. Of course the only way to enforce an international treaty, if threats or sanctions are not enough, is war.

jfk13 4y ago

Some states tried that in the 1860s. It was traumatic.

ben_w 4y ago

No, the EU has a specific process for leaving by asking, while the US states can only leave if a sufficient number of the other states agree to it. The EU isn't really a country, it's a free trade agreement with an unusually democratic (by the standard of FTAs) process for updating its own rules.

M2Ys4U 4y ago
>The EU isn't really a country, it's a free trade agreement with an unusually democratic (by the standard of FTAs) process for updating its own rules. The EU isn't just a free trade agreement and it has never been just a free trade agreement. It has always been a political endeavour. Of course that doesn't make it a country or a nation state at all, but let's not go too far in the other direction when trying to describe it.
- ben_w 4y ago
  Every free trade agreement is a political endeavour. The entire concept of free trade is in part where the term "liberal" originates from (not that the term should be considered a guide to current policies of parties with that title, lots has changed since it was Liberals vs Whigs).
bhupy 4y ago
The EU isn't a country (yet), but it's a political union that increasingly walks and quacks like a country. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lj127TKu4Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lj127TKu4Q
effie 4y ago
Indeed it is not a country. But democratic process is a very wrong word here, even with the adjective "representative". The EU process for updating its own rules is a bureaucracy directed by prime ministers, and those influenced/controlled by powerful groups. E.g. Scholz and Macron pushing for federalization and weakening the power of states - this is great for EU apparatus and those wanting to make it stronger, but state citizens do not want this.

arlort 4y ago

No There is no codified legal process for a US state to leave the Union, and the only previous attempt caused a civil war A member of the EU has both an implicit right to withdraw from the treaties (deriving from international customary law around treaties) and an explicit legal path to follow. A process which they control in their entirety (as in they can't be forced to stay longer than they wish by the other countries and can't be forced to leave earlier than the prescribed deadline)

sveme 4y ago

Out of curiosity: can Swiss cantons leave the Swiss confederation?

Archelaos 4y ago
The 26 cantons are mentioned in the Swiss constitution by name. If one wants to leave, the constitution would have to be changed. So a canton can only leave, if a majority of the whole people as well as the cantons voted in favour.