4 ms·

We have known for many years the CIA is awful. Get rid of it. We can achieve national security goals via alternate means. It's probably going to get me banned,

We have known for many years the CIA is awful. Get rid of it. We can achieve national security goals via alternate means. It's probably going to get me banned, but we know they interfere in foreign elections. Why is it such a long shot to believe they don't interfere locally?

mellavora 4y ago
> Why is it such a long shot to believe they don't interfere locally? Because this goes strongly against the culture of the organization? People are funny. They may be willing to bend any law and/or see themselves as above the law in some aspects (see i.e. the Iran/contra affair), yet will honor-bind themselves to other ways. Because at the end of the day they want to be the heros, the good guys. And the C.I.A. is an organization, so people within it are bound to a culture which is part of the organization. They might be perfectly willing to betray the American people (as you or I might see it), but they will not betray the C.I.A. Part of C.I.A. is that it operates outside of US territory.
- seanw444 4y ago
  You're right, they want to be the heros. And some people would convince themselves that being a hero is to prevent a particular person from becoming president, because it would be "a danger to our democracy."
- anon291 4y ago
  I'm not sure I buy this argument that they see interfering in our elections as dishonorable. People so willing to break American laws have no good sense of honor for me
- michael1999 4y ago
  Do you think it was a coincidence that Nixon recruited his plumbers from the FBI and CIA?
- tarakat 4y ago
  > Why is it such a long shot to believe they don't interfere locally? > Because this goes strongly against the culture of the organization? No it doesn't, and I'm curious where you got that impression: A Brief History of the CIA's Unpunished Spying on the Senate - https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/a-brief-history-of-the-cias-unpunished-spying-on-the-senate/384003/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/a-brief... Through these programs, the CIA's Office of Security received information from US based informants regarding individuals and groups with anti-war views. [..] According to a 1977 New York Times article, the CIA conducted a covert propaganda campaign to squelch criticism of the Warren Report. The CIA urged its field stations to use their "propaganda assets" to attack those who didn't agree with the Warren Report. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_the_United_S... In 1975, Church Committee Congressional investigations revealed Agency connections with journalists and civic groups. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird At various times, under its own initiative or in accordance with directives from the President of the United States or the National Security Council staff, the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has attempted to influence public opinion both in the United States and abroad. [..] Ralph McGehee, a former CIA officer, stated that the CIA often placed news stories anonymously in news publications to spread false ideas favorable to CIA goals. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_influence_on_public_opinion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_influence_on_public_opinio... And that's only what we know about.
- jobs_throwaway 4y ago
  These people are A-OK with murdering American children, but you somehow believe they draw a moral line at interfering locally? Get the fuck outta here. There's absolutely no reason to believe the CIA is above meddling domestically.
mmcdermott 4y ago
It isn't immediately clear to me that you could run a modern state without some sort of intelligence apparatus. If anything, Israel is a case study of intelligence being a great equalizer for smaller states. That doesn't excuse abuses or allow for their overreaches, which very much need to be addressed.
- anon291 4y ago
  I agree. I'm not advocating for doing without. Just replacing
  - LunaSea 4y ago
    Could you detail how that new setup would look like?
    - anon291 4y ago
      No. I don't know. This is the purpose of representative government. In particular though I think certain powers should require Congress to declare war.
- AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
LinuxBender 4y ago
Get rid of it. I can't speak for the CIA but I can offer my armchair-commander opinion. I could imagine they might support your idea so to speak. Get rid of the existing agency and all the existing bureaucracy limiting their actions would be gone. All the negative history is left to Wikipedia. A new agency and thus a new sharp end of the stick would pop up in its place and they would migrate over their trusted cohorts and undisclosed funds. I think it would be viewed as a re-organization and they could cut all the dead weight, debt, etc...

mellavora 4y ago

> Why is it such a long shot to believe they don't interfere locally? Because this goes strongly against the culture of the organization? People are funny. They may be willing to bend any law and/or see themselves as above the law in some aspects (see i.e. the Iran/contra affair), yet will honor-bind themselves to other ways. Because at the end of the day they want to be the heros, the good guys. And the C.I.A. is an organization, so people within it are bound to a culture which is part of the organization. They might be perfectly willing to betray the American people (as you or I might see it), but they will not betray the C.I.A. Part of C.I.A. is that it operates outside of US territory.

seanw444 4y ago
You're right, they want to be the heros. And some people would convince themselves that being a hero is to prevent a particular person from becoming president, because it would be "a danger to our democracy."
anon291 4y ago
I'm not sure I buy this argument that they see interfering in our elections as dishonorable. People so willing to break American laws have no good sense of honor for me
michael1999 4y ago
Do you think it was a coincidence that Nixon recruited his plumbers from the FBI and CIA?
tarakat 4y ago
> Why is it such a long shot to believe they don't interfere locally? > Because this goes strongly against the culture of the organization? No it doesn't, and I'm curious where you got that impression: A Brief History of the CIA's Unpunished Spying on the Senate - https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/a-brief-history-of-the-cias-unpunished-spying-on-the-senate/384003/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/a-brief... Through these programs, the CIA's Office of Security received information from US based informants regarding individuals and groups with anti-war views. [..] According to a 1977 New York Times article, the CIA conducted a covert propaganda campaign to squelch criticism of the Warren Report. The CIA urged its field stations to use their "propaganda assets" to attack those who didn't agree with the Warren Report. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_the_United_S... In 1975, Church Committee Congressional investigations revealed Agency connections with journalists and civic groups. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird At various times, under its own initiative or in accordance with directives from the President of the United States or the National Security Council staff, the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has attempted to influence public opinion both in the United States and abroad. [..] Ralph McGehee, a former CIA officer, stated that the CIA often placed news stories anonymously in news publications to spread false ideas favorable to CIA goals. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_influence_on_public_opinion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_influence_on_public_opinio... And that's only what we know about.
jobs_throwaway 4y ago
These people are A-OK with murdering American children, but you somehow believe they draw a moral line at interfering locally? Get the fuck outta here. There's absolutely no reason to believe the CIA is above meddling domestically.

mmcdermott 4y ago

It isn't immediately clear to me that you could run a modern state without some sort of intelligence apparatus. If anything, Israel is a case study of intelligence being a great equalizer for smaller states. That doesn't excuse abuses or allow for their overreaches, which very much need to be addressed.

anon291 4y ago
I agree. I'm not advocating for doing without. Just replacing
- LunaSea 4y ago
  Could you detail how that new setup would look like?
  - anon291 4y ago
    No. I don't know. This is the purpose of representative government. In particular though I think certain powers should require Congress to declare war.
AlgorithmicTime 4y ago

LinuxBender 4y ago

Get rid of it. I can't speak for the CIA but I can offer my armchair-commander opinion. I could imagine they might support your idea so to speak. Get rid of the existing agency and all the existing bureaucracy limiting their actions would be gone. All the negative history is left to Wikipedia. A new agency and thus a new sharp end of the stick would pop up in its place and they would migrate over their trusted cohorts and undisclosed funds. I think it would be viewed as a re-organization and they could cut all the dead weight, debt, etc...