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it is not clear what could be done should an intelligence agency turn rogue, and become operationally independent from the government. It's basically a non-demo

it is not clear what could be done should an intelligence agency turn rogue, and become operationally independent from the government. It's basically a non-democratic power centre which - because it is not subject to elections - will always outlast any politician, and because of the nature of the work, has vast powers of direct and indirect influence. Good job that this is not the case in the US

banannaise 4y ago
It gets extra fun when you realize that all of this also applies to the police.
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  And now google "J. Edgar Hoover blackmail" and despair...
- dfxm12 4y ago
  Most of it applies to the Supreme Court as well.
  - newaccount2021 4y ago
- NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
  Even more fun when you realize that the "War on Drugs" has nothing to do with drugs, and is intended to militarize the police.
pessimizer 4y ago
It's worse, because intelligence agencies surveil politicians, and can manipulate both them directly and the elections that get them their jobs. It's inevitable that the government will be controlled by the person at the highest levels of surveillance (the unsurveilled one) in a world of complete surveillance. Surveillance gets you power, and more power gives you better ability to exploit and increase surveillance. SF idea: The secrecy around your intelligence budget rises along with the size of your intelligence budget. Eventually the intelligence budget completely disappears, and people forget that there ever were intelligence agencies. But that's only because everything is now actually part of the intelligence budget, and the publicly-released budget numbers are determined by an team for the purpose of creating popular support for current initiatives, creating popular rage at troublesome trends, and designing election outcomes.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
pavlov 4y ago
Russia is basically a country that was taken over by a rogue intelligence agency. Putin is a KGB man through and through. Ironic that Snowden found his sanctuary there. He's presumably a Russian citizen now — at least he applied for citizenship in November 2020.
- HideousKojima 4y ago
  >Ironic that Snowden found his sanctuary there. It wasn't really by choice, as I understand it he was trying to relocate to South America. And given events like grounding the plane of a head of state because they suspected Snowden was on board I can't say I'm surprised he hasn't tried to relocate to elsewhere.
  - NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
    The US state department revoked his passport while he was in Russia. The American govt trapped him there.
TeeMassive 4y ago
Congress can simply cut their budget. The President can fire who he wants in the executive branch. Talk about it in the court of public opinion. Discourage "voting X no matter who" and focus on issues rather than sides.
- webdoodle 4y ago
  The CIA has significant 'public/private' partnerships with thousands of companies and NGO's and non-profits. It might hurt the face of the CIA, but the people who make up the CIA, AKA it's employee's, will just distribute themselves within these external orgs and continue there operations covertly. It's exactly what they did when they were caught using military propaganda techniques on U.S. citizens; AKA Operation Mockingbird. During the Church and Pike commissions, which were constantly attacked by CIA blackmailers, they didn't even fire anyone let alone press charges. The result was that the CIA was told not to do propaganda. To avoid this restriction, many CIA agents quit, and then privately entered the media industry, while continuing the same objectives they had while working for the CIA. Now today, nearly 50 years later, private media is still allowed to use propaganda against us, because it isn't the government. This loop hole needs to be eliminated.
- BitwiseFool 4y ago
  >"Congress can simply cut their budget. The President can fire who he wants in the executive branch. Talk about it in the court of public opinion. Discourage "voting X no matter who" and focus on issues rather than sides." Were it so easy. I feel like the same sentiment could apply to the military industrial complex, wherein congress could cut the budget at any time, the President could dismiss the most bellicose and wasteful officers, and the citizenry could focus on the issue rather than partisanship. Indeed, left and right seem to believe we spend way to much on certain military projects, yet nothing ever seems to be done about the ballooning budgets. I believe one of the most sinister things about our intelligence apparatus is the fact that hoovering up all this data means it is easier than ever to blackmail our politicians who happen to be digital natives. I can only imagine how badly Millennial and Gen Z politicians can be made to look if their browser history were to leak.
- LatteLazy 4y ago
canjobear 4y ago
Is CIA rogue? Many of the morally upsetting acts documented here (killing an 8 year old girl, spying on the American people) seem to have been ordered by officials in the elected government.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- fit2rule 4y ago
62951413 4y ago
That's why there are typically multiple secret services (with different missions but similar skillsets). They are encouraged to spy on each other. None is allowed to dominate everyone else. Remember the movie Valkyrie? It provides another vivid illustration of what can be done to reign in a secret police once the army rolls in. The very same thing happened in the USSR during the power struggles after Stalin died.

banannaise 4y ago

It gets extra fun when you realize that all of this also applies to the police.

DocTomoe 4y ago
And now google "J. Edgar Hoover blackmail" and despair...
dfxm12 4y ago
Most of it applies to the Supreme Court as well.
- newaccount2021 4y ago
NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
Even more fun when you realize that the "War on Drugs" has nothing to do with drugs, and is intended to militarize the police.

pessimizer 4y ago

It's worse, because intelligence agencies surveil politicians, and can manipulate both them directly and the elections that get them their jobs. It's inevitable that the government will be controlled by the person at the highest levels of surveillance (the unsurveilled one) in a world of complete surveillance. Surveillance gets you power, and more power gives you better ability to exploit and increase surveillance. SF idea: The secrecy around your intelligence budget rises along with the size of your intelligence budget. Eventually the intelligence budget completely disappears, and people forget that there ever were intelligence agencies. But that's only because everything is now actually part of the intelligence budget, and the publicly-released budget numbers are determined by an team for the purpose of creating popular support for current initiatives, creating popular rage at troublesome trends, and designing election outcomes.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

pavlov 4y ago

Russia is basically a country that was taken over by a rogue intelligence agency. Putin is a KGB man through and through. Ironic that Snowden found his sanctuary there. He's presumably a Russian citizen now — at least he applied for citizenship in November 2020.

HideousKojima 4y ago
>Ironic that Snowden found his sanctuary there. It wasn't really by choice, as I understand it he was trying to relocate to South America. And given events like grounding the plane of a head of state because they suspected Snowden was on board I can't say I'm surprised he hasn't tried to relocate to elsewhere.
- NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
  The US state department revoked his passport while he was in Russia. The American govt trapped him there.

TeeMassive 4y ago

Congress can simply cut their budget. The President can fire who he wants in the executive branch. Talk about it in the court of public opinion. Discourage "voting X no matter who" and focus on issues rather than sides.

webdoodle 4y ago
The CIA has significant 'public/private' partnerships with thousands of companies and NGO's and non-profits. It might hurt the face of the CIA, but the people who make up the CIA, AKA it's employee's, will just distribute themselves within these external orgs and continue there operations covertly. It's exactly what they did when they were caught using military propaganda techniques on U.S. citizens; AKA Operation Mockingbird. During the Church and Pike commissions, which were constantly attacked by CIA blackmailers, they didn't even fire anyone let alone press charges. The result was that the CIA was told not to do propaganda. To avoid this restriction, many CIA agents quit, and then privately entered the media industry, while continuing the same objectives they had while working for the CIA. Now today, nearly 50 years later, private media is still allowed to use propaganda against us, because it isn't the government. This loop hole needs to be eliminated.
BitwiseFool 4y ago
>"Congress can simply cut their budget. The President can fire who he wants in the executive branch. Talk about it in the court of public opinion. Discourage "voting X no matter who" and focus on issues rather than sides." Were it so easy. I feel like the same sentiment could apply to the military industrial complex, wherein congress could cut the budget at any time, the President could dismiss the most bellicose and wasteful officers, and the citizenry could focus on the issue rather than partisanship. Indeed, left and right seem to believe we spend way to much on certain military projects, yet nothing ever seems to be done about the ballooning budgets. I believe one of the most sinister things about our intelligence apparatus is the fact that hoovering up all this data means it is easier than ever to blackmail our politicians who happen to be digital natives. I can only imagine how badly Millennial and Gen Z politicians can be made to look if their browser history were to leak.
LatteLazy 4y ago

canjobear 4y ago

Is CIA rogue? Many of the morally upsetting acts documented here (killing an 8 year old girl, spying on the American people) seem to have been ordered by officials in the elected government.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
fit2rule 4y ago

62951413 4y ago

That's why there are typically multiple secret services (with different missions but similar skillsets). They are encouraged to spy on each other. None is allowed to dominate everyone else. Remember the movie Valkyrie? It provides another vivid illustration of what can be done to reign in a secret police once the army rolls in. The very same thing happened in the USSR during the power struggles after Stalin died.