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Personally, I'd change the order. Coach first, body weight second. If there's one piece of equipment to buy first & ASAP, it'd be a powermeter and something to

Personally, I'd change the order. Coach first, body weight second. If there's one piece of equipment to buy first & ASAP, it'd be a powermeter and something to display the readout on. Riding in a group is of course great, but first You got to have the legs to catch up and then the body weight / metabolism to keep up. Having the core / flexibility to be able to spend hours in somewhat aero position doesn't hurt either. It always makes me laugh to see slightly overweight people on carbon frames. Having a few kilos over myself, I always thought I'd rather spend money / time / effort losing 3-4kg of fat, rather than mulling over how to shave 100g off of the groupset or 300g of wheels weight...

noir_lord 4y ago
> but first You got to have the legs to catch up and then the body weight / metabolism to keep up. Not just keep up, if you are riding in a group you need to be fit enough to take your turn on the front where you aren't draughting (at least if the group you are riding with is your team). The actual team dynamics of professional road racing are fascinating, much like F1 they'll often pick the strongest and expect everyone else to support them.
- MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
  yeah, I've never really been into group riding / drafting on a competitive level. I'm mostly trying to avoid it, actually (more of a self-supported racing kind of guy). Where I train (Paris, polygone de Vincennes) there are quite a few groups riding together, but not sure they'd switch places. I guess it depends on why You do what You do. In my case, if someone wants to ride behind me, I don't mind (other than that it makes me a bit more careful when passing someone / turning corners). I'm there to work on my power output or cadence, not to get KOMs on Strava segments ;-)
rich_sasha 4y ago
Yeah but carbon gives you cred, and basically _buys_ you speed. Losing weight is effort. Sarcasm over, one of the funniest cycling stories i ever encountered. My work had a little low-key "bike club", a few guys cycling on warm evenings. One of the partners was a key member so over time non-bike guys started wiggling in for networking purposes. One guy, with no clue how to ride, drops 2k++ on a full carbon bike, high end components etc. Cometh the first hill, and we find ourselves waiting at the top. 2 mins, 5 mins, finally 10-15 mins in one guy turns around to check up. The carbon bike cyclist figured how to shift up, but didn't know how to shift down, and was trying desperately to climb in a downhill gear.
- pmontra 4y ago
  I quote your sarcasm. > Losing weight is effort. I knew a guy that was training to run an amateur marathon in under I don't remember which time. He went asking to a coach and came back with a long list of training exercises and runs or, the coach told him, lose 3 kg. He lost those 3 kg.
- MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
  oh, that's a good one. Explaining how brifters work never gets old :-D On a more serious note, I don't really see the appeal of biking as a social / networking sport. Yeah, we do have a sort of a bike cabal at work too, but if I'd like to network, I guess there are much more efficient ways to do that. Biking as a sport has quite high barriers for entry both in material and in getting fit enough to be able to at least reasonably keep up.
- sorenjan 4y ago
  The sad thing is that $2k barely gets you a carbon frame with low end components now. A mid tier bike is maybe $5k, and high end can easily be more than $10k. Personally I really don't get why anyone would pay $10k for a bike. Amateurs won't benefit nearly enough to make it worth it, and pros are of course sponsored.
  - rich_sasha 4y ago
    It was 2k GBP so more like 3k USD but point stands. It wasn't a good bike. I think semi pros are possibly the main audience. A friend is into endurance events and he just dropped something like 2k on a titanium frame.
wl 4y ago
There's a difference between weight weenie carbon and using carbon to improve ride feel and aerodynamics. I've got an old bike made out of Reynolds 853 steel that's lighter than my recent vintage full carbon bike.
- MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
  The "ride feel" argument is something I quite frankly never understood. I guess it's because I don't do competitive road racing (more of an ultra / bikepacking sort of guy). When I was shopping for my current frame (Kona Rove), I picked up the steel version mostly for maintenance / mechanical reasons more than anything else. Don't see much of a difference in "feel" from my old aluminium road to be honest (other than what's caused by the different geometry / fit). I'd like to build up some chinese carbon frame next year just for fun, so we'll see. Maybe I'll change opinion then. But yeah, I 100% agree that the aerodynamics on modern frames is significantly better. Just not really at the speeds at which I end up riding and with the amount of gear / packs I end up putting on the frame / handlebars.
  - wl 4y ago
    While the Trek Émonda is as weight weenie as Trek gets, it can provide an apples-to-apples comparison between aluminum and carbon with basically the same geometry, wheels, bars, tires etc. My experience is that the carbon version feels significantly nicer. For bikepacking, I'm with you: A traditional steel frame (albeit one with discs), nice wide tires to eat up road chatter, and plenty of places to mount gear.
  - qqqwerty 4y ago
    It is subtle, but you will know it when you feel it. Aluminium frames can be engineered to have more flex, and some steel frames can be overbuilt to a point where the "steel feel" is diminished. So comparing any two random frames may not be sufficient to capture the feel. Also the feeling is subtle enough that the components on your bike can be the larger factor. Tires, crank arms, handlebars, tire pressure, etc.. will all play a factor. Swapping all of your components from one bike to the other would be the best test, but unless your components in aggregate provide a "neutral" feel, it is possible that they could overwhelm the feeling that a different frame will provide.
jackmott42 4y ago
Carbon frames don't really cost especially more money than a nice aluminum bike any more.

noir_lord 4y ago

> but first You got to have the legs to catch up and then the body weight / metabolism to keep up. Not just keep up, if you are riding in a group you need to be fit enough to take your turn on the front where you aren't draughting (at least if the group you are riding with is your team). The actual team dynamics of professional road racing are fascinating, much like F1 they'll often pick the strongest and expect everyone else to support them.

MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
yeah, I've never really been into group riding / drafting on a competitive level. I'm mostly trying to avoid it, actually (more of a self-supported racing kind of guy). Where I train (Paris, polygone de Vincennes) there are quite a few groups riding together, but not sure they'd switch places. I guess it depends on why You do what You do. In my case, if someone wants to ride behind me, I don't mind (other than that it makes me a bit more careful when passing someone / turning corners). I'm there to work on my power output or cadence, not to get KOMs on Strava segments ;-)

rich_sasha 4y ago

Yeah but carbon gives you cred, and basically _buys_ you speed. Losing weight is effort. Sarcasm over, one of the funniest cycling stories i ever encountered. My work had a little low-key "bike club", a few guys cycling on warm evenings. One of the partners was a key member so over time non-bike guys started wiggling in for networking purposes. One guy, with no clue how to ride, drops 2k++ on a full carbon bike, high end components etc. Cometh the first hill, and we find ourselves waiting at the top. 2 mins, 5 mins, finally 10-15 mins in one guy turns around to check up. The carbon bike cyclist figured how to shift up, but didn't know how to shift down, and was trying desperately to climb in a downhill gear.

pmontra 4y ago
I quote your sarcasm. > Losing weight is effort. I knew a guy that was training to run an amateur marathon in under I don't remember which time. He went asking to a coach and came back with a long list of training exercises and runs or, the coach told him, lose 3 kg. He lost those 3 kg.
MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
oh, that's a good one. Explaining how brifters work never gets old :-D On a more serious note, I don't really see the appeal of biking as a social / networking sport. Yeah, we do have a sort of a bike cabal at work too, but if I'd like to network, I guess there are much more efficient ways to do that. Biking as a sport has quite high barriers for entry both in material and in getting fit enough to be able to at least reasonably keep up.
sorenjan 4y ago
The sad thing is that $2k barely gets you a carbon frame with low end components now. A mid tier bike is maybe $5k, and high end can easily be more than $10k. Personally I really don't get why anyone would pay $10k for a bike. Amateurs won't benefit nearly enough to make it worth it, and pros are of course sponsored.
- rich_sasha 4y ago
  It was 2k GBP so more like 3k USD but point stands. It wasn't a good bike. I think semi pros are possibly the main audience. A friend is into endurance events and he just dropped something like 2k on a titanium frame.

wl 4y ago

There's a difference between weight weenie carbon and using carbon to improve ride feel and aerodynamics. I've got an old bike made out of Reynolds 853 steel that's lighter than my recent vintage full carbon bike.

MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
The "ride feel" argument is something I quite frankly never understood. I guess it's because I don't do competitive road racing (more of an ultra / bikepacking sort of guy). When I was shopping for my current frame (Kona Rove), I picked up the steel version mostly for maintenance / mechanical reasons more than anything else. Don't see much of a difference in "feel" from my old aluminium road to be honest (other than what's caused by the different geometry / fit). I'd like to build up some chinese carbon frame next year just for fun, so we'll see. Maybe I'll change opinion then. But yeah, I 100% agree that the aerodynamics on modern frames is significantly better. Just not really at the speeds at which I end up riding and with the amount of gear / packs I end up putting on the frame / handlebars.
- wl 4y ago
  While the Trek Émonda is as weight weenie as Trek gets, it can provide an apples-to-apples comparison between aluminum and carbon with basically the same geometry, wheels, bars, tires etc. My experience is that the carbon version feels significantly nicer. For bikepacking, I'm with you: A traditional steel frame (albeit one with discs), nice wide tires to eat up road chatter, and plenty of places to mount gear.
- qqqwerty 4y ago
  It is subtle, but you will know it when you feel it. Aluminium frames can be engineered to have more flex, and some steel frames can be overbuilt to a point where the "steel feel" is diminished. So comparing any two random frames may not be sufficient to capture the feel. Also the feeling is subtle enough that the components on your bike can be the larger factor. Tires, crank arms, handlebars, tire pressure, etc.. will all play a factor. Swapping all of your components from one bike to the other would be the best test, but unless your components in aggregate provide a "neutral" feel, it is possible that they could overwhelm the feeling that a different frame will provide.

jackmott42 4y ago

Carbon frames don't really cost especially more money than a nice aluminum bike any more.