6 ms·

It's incredible what competition can do to spur innovation. Does everyone remember how stagnant Java had become during the 6-7 era?

by fny 4y ago

pjmlp 4y ago
It is like being busy with an aquisition, and uncertainity about the job, would be an impedement for doing software development.
- 411111111111111 4y ago
  That too, but i think the parent is correct as well. Java has definitely increased the pace of development with gradual changes going out quicker, especially after 11.
  - dcminter 4y ago
    It's on a date-based rather than feature-based cycle since 8. I think I recall there being talk of doing that back in the Sun era at one point, but then it ended up being a multi-year wait regardless. Very much nicer this way, and although a few businesses are still stuck on 6 or 8 most places seem to be aiming to stay current with Long Term Support (LTS) releases (of which 17 is the current LTS and 21 will be the next one).
    - PaulHoule 4y ago
      We switched to 17 this summer. I am hoping that many of the things in the pipe right now are finalized for 21.
- KptMarchewa 4y ago
  It was stagnant even before acquisition. Sun apparently focused on JavaFX trying to make Android competitor, which all failed.
  - giancarlostoro 4y ago
    To me it sucks because its a space that would get me to use Java if they had a really powerful GUI stack that is modern and feature filled. I feel like Oracle is dropping the ball not investing there. We went from having RAD IDE's that produced native UIs to everything has to be done in electron because nobody is innovating in the Desktop GUI space.
  - titzer 4y ago
    Sun put a huge amount of effort into JavaFX. It was literally hundreds of engineers.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    JavaFX predates Android.
  - gonzo41 4y ago
    JavaFX was a missed opportunity. A bit more effort and you'd have an electron killer.
    - MattPalmer1086 4y ago
      Nobody liked cross platform UI toolkits (they just don't feel native). And all UI development was happening with web tech, where somehow the divergence didn't matter.
      - KptMarchewa 4y ago
        People severely overestimate how users positively perceive native vs non-native apps. Especially since >And all UI development was happening with web tech, where somehow the divergence didn't matter. If you're 95-99% of time using non-native web technologies, why would you care about that much about rest of it being native?
        MattPalmer1086 4y ago
        I guess cross platform toolkits fall into an uncanny valley for UIs.
- chrisjc 4y ago
  It's been a long time since I thought about this, but wasn't IBM really the one pushing and innovating Java (not just EE)?
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    IBM has done some innovations of their own implementation, which nowadays lives on as OpenJ9. Some of the innovations were value types extensions, AOT compilation or JIT caches, and until OpenJ9 came to be, that usually was only available to commercial clients.
eventhorizonpl 4y ago
geodel 4y ago
Someone has to have money to spend. Sun did not have much money during 6-7 era.
josefx 4y ago
The 6-7 era was as far as I remember blocked by the community process, as there was a dispute over open source Java implementations and the restrictions in Suns certification process (no embedded use without license). Sun instead invested time and money into OpenJDK, which probably also pissed of a lot of people that wanted free reign over their Java implementations without having Sun or the GPL dictating terms.
pron 4y ago
I don't think Java has ever faced as much serious competition as it did circa 2005 from PHP and Ruby. What caused Java's stagnation was Sun's decline (which both reduced resources as well as made some big missteps), and as Oracle ramped up the investment in Java, we were able to get back to the roadmap (as well as come up with new ideas).
- mwcampbell 4y ago
  Do you not think Node.js in the 2010s was serious competition? After all, it combined the dynamism of something like PHP with a high-performance VM built by (IIUC) former HotSpot devs.
  - pron 4y ago
    Yeah, you're right. Anyway, my point is that what caused Java's stagnation is not lack of competition, and what's caused its resurgence is not greater competition. Both were just a matter of resources.
fulafel 4y ago
The slow period helped other JVM languages - Clojure, Scala and Kotlin - which are now preferred by many. A fortunate stagnation I think.

It's incredible what competition can do to spur innovation. Does everyone remember how stagnant Java had become during the 6-7 era?

by fny 4y ago

It's incredible what competition can do to spur innovation. Does everyone remember how stagnant Java had become during the 6-7 era?

pjmlp 4y ago

It is like being busy with an aquisition, and uncertainity about the job, would be an impedement for doing software development.

411111111111111 4y ago
That too, but i think the parent is correct as well. Java has definitely increased the pace of development with gradual changes going out quicker, especially after 11.
- dcminter 4y ago
  It's on a date-based rather than feature-based cycle since 8. I think I recall there being talk of doing that back in the Sun era at one point, but then it ended up being a multi-year wait regardless. Very much nicer this way, and although a few businesses are still stuck on 6 or 8 most places seem to be aiming to stay current with Long Term Support (LTS) releases (of which 17 is the current LTS and 21 will be the next one).
  - PaulHoule 4y ago
    We switched to 17 this summer. I am hoping that many of the things in the pipe right now are finalized for 21.
KptMarchewa 4y ago
It was stagnant even before acquisition. Sun apparently focused on JavaFX trying to make Android competitor, which all failed.
- giancarlostoro 4y ago
  To me it sucks because its a space that would get me to use Java if they had a really powerful GUI stack that is modern and feature filled. I feel like Oracle is dropping the ball not investing there. We went from having RAD IDE's that produced native UIs to everything has to be done in electron because nobody is innovating in the Desktop GUI space.
- titzer 4y ago
  Sun put a huge amount of effort into JavaFX. It was literally hundreds of engineers.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  JavaFX predates Android.
- gonzo41 4y ago
  JavaFX was a missed opportunity. A bit more effort and you'd have an electron killer.
  - MattPalmer1086 4y ago
    Nobody liked cross platform UI toolkits (they just don't feel native). And all UI development was happening with web tech, where somehow the divergence didn't matter.
    - KptMarchewa 4y ago
      People severely overestimate how users positively perceive native vs non-native apps. Especially since >And all UI development was happening with web tech, where somehow the divergence didn't matter. If you're 95-99% of time using non-native web technologies, why would you care about that much about rest of it being native?
      - MattPalmer1086 4y ago
        I guess cross platform toolkits fall into an uncanny valley for UIs.
chrisjc 4y ago
It's been a long time since I thought about this, but wasn't IBM really the one pushing and innovating Java (not just EE)?
- pjmlp 4y ago
  IBM has done some innovations of their own implementation, which nowadays lives on as OpenJ9. Some of the innovations were value types extensions, AOT compilation or JIT caches, and until OpenJ9 came to be, that usually was only available to commercial clients.

eventhorizonpl 4y ago

geodel 4y ago

Someone has to have money to spend. Sun did not have much money during 6-7 era.

josefx 4y ago

The 6-7 era was as far as I remember blocked by the community process, as there was a dispute over open source Java implementations and the restrictions in Suns certification process (no embedded use without license). Sun instead invested time and money into OpenJDK, which probably also pissed of a lot of people that wanted free reign over their Java implementations without having Sun or the GPL dictating terms.

pron 4y ago

I don't think Java has ever faced as much serious competition as it did circa 2005 from PHP and Ruby. What caused Java's stagnation was Sun's decline (which both reduced resources as well as made some big missteps), and as Oracle ramped up the investment in Java, we were able to get back to the roadmap (as well as come up with new ideas).

mwcampbell 4y ago
Do you not think Node.js in the 2010s was serious competition? After all, it combined the dynamism of something like PHP with a high-performance VM built by (IIUC) former HotSpot devs.
- pron 4y ago
  Yeah, you're right. Anyway, my point is that what caused Java's stagnation is not lack of competition, and what's caused its resurgence is not greater competition. Both were just a matter of resources.

fulafel 4y ago

The slow period helped other JVM languages - Clojure, Scala and Kotlin - which are now preferred by many. A fortunate stagnation I think.