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I'm just a programmer who's been doing this for 20 years. I don't have the credentials of Mark, who is a legend. But I fully agree with him. There will be speci

I'm just a programmer who's been doing this for 20 years. I don't have the credentials of Mark, who is a legend. But I fully agree with him. There will be specific exceptions, but if you have the choice between Rust and C++ you would be making a big mistake to not choose Rust. The language is simpler, cleaner, safer, and more enjoyable to work with. The build tools are far more pleasant. The IDE experience is comparable. The hiring market is way better for Rust because it's not mainstream. Programmers currently using Rust are superior to programmers using C++, statistically speaking. There's a vast difference between individuals, but with only that one data point you can tell quite a lot. People learn C++ in college. People learn Rust because they love their craft. I stopped using C++ after I learned Rust. I still use Go sometimes, when appropriate, and I use other languages in my day job. I have a lot of experience in C++, much more than with Rust. The borrow checker still drives me mad. I've worked in over twenty languages over the years. Languages are tools, try to be impartial and pick the best tool for the job. Your personal tastes don't matter unless it's your personal project.

krona 4y ago
> The language is simpler, cleaner, safer, and more enjoyable to work with. I was a Rust v1 contributor. I have great hopes for the language as a replacement for c in systems engineering. However, I much prefer C++ 20 for the kind of work I do (scientific computing). Rust isn't a competitor to C++ in that arena, in my humble opinion. > Programmers currently using Rust are superior to programmers using C++, statistically speaking The phrase 'statistically speaking' suggests the collection of empirical data. Could you elaborate? > People learn Rust because they love their craft. If Rust becomes popular enough, this will no longer be any truer than for people who learn c++.
- auggierose 4y ago
  Very interesting. I am working on something that I hope will also appeal to people doing scientific computing. Could you say a few words about why you prefer C++20 over Rust for scientific computing?
- slashdev 4y ago
  > I was a Rust v1 contributor. I have great hopes for the language as a replacement for c in systems engineering. However, I much prefer C++ 20 for the kind of work I do (scientific computing). Rust isn't a competitor to C++ in that arena, in my humble opinion. There's a lot of domains where Rust isn't an appropriate replacement. Notice I phrased it as "if you have the choice between Rust and C++". Often times because of libraries/frameworks you need, that may not really be a choice. > The phrase 'statistically speaking' suggests the collection of empirical data. Could you elaborate? I don't have data apart from two decades of screening candidates and conducting interviews. I've heard this from other people, including Paul Graham, and I've seen it in my personal experience. I probably should have chosen different wording to not mislead people that this is backed by hard data. > If Rust becomes popular enough, this will no longer be any truer than for people who learn c++. That's how it goes. Python was once a signal for finding better developers. That's no longer true.
thisiswrongggg 4y ago
>> The hiring market is way better for Rust because it's not mainstream. The ratio of C++/rust jobs where I am (EU country) is 5564/54. And these 54 jobs are mostly in cryptocurrencies.
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  I mean the argument is made that Rust is not mainstream, but if you were to pull in e.g. Java or Javascript apps in that comparison I'm confident it would make C++ look like a non-mainstream language too. edit: numbers say I'm wrong, C++ is more mainstream than C#, C is more mainstream than Java: https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/. I mean I doubt this source (it seems to indicate objective-C, which is all but superseded by swift, is on the rise) but it's at least one datapoint.
  - izacus 4y ago
    That doesn't really change the fact that the only job you can really get is in cryptoshit markets.
    - supportlocal4h 4y ago
      Or working for Azure, apparently, or Cloudflare, or Amazon, or ... This doesn't change the argument about scarcity in general, but it isn't true that the few jobs that are out there are only in crypto.
_gabe_ 4y ago
> Programmers currently using Rust are superior to programmers using C++ > People learn C++ in college. People learn Rust because they love their craft Wow... and rust programmers wonder why rust has a stigma? So I guess John Carmack is inferior and is not an ultimate craftsman.
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  You cut out the words “statistically speaking”, which entirely change the meaning.
  - jjk166 4y ago
    In what way does it change the meaning? As I read it, "statistically speaking" is just being used as a parenthetical phrase to qualify that they're not trying to argue literally every rust programmer is superior to literally every c++ programmer, and can be safely omitted so long as no one tries to make some dumb argument like "well I've met one bad rust programmer before" or "so and so is a great programmer and they choose c++."
    - School-Cotton 4y ago
      > so and so is a great programmer and they choose c++ Am I crazy? Isn’t that literally exactly what the person I’m responding to was arguing with respect to Carmack?
      - _gabe_ 4y ago
        You cut out part of my full statement which entirely changes the meaning ;) Here it is in context: > So I guess John Carmack is inferior and is not an ultimate craftsman. I didn't realize that their are statistics on what constitutes a craftsman. But I'm willing to change my mind. I'm very curious what those statistics measure though. Edit: Not to mention like peteradio pointed out, what does a statistically superior programmer look like and where do those statistics live?
  - peteradio 4y ago
LtWorf 4y ago
grog454 4y ago
Why do you think Rust isn't used more widely?
- alkonaut 4y ago
  Because total greenfield projects in systems languages is still a pretty rare thing. Writing a new game with a C++ game engine isn't going to count, for example, and that means quite few things will. I actually think it is quite widely used in this small niche. Don't have any data to back it up and my newsfeed is probably biased.
pwpw 4y ago
As someone that is looking to learn one or the other (and hopefully be able to utilize it to land a job too), is the recommendation to skip learning C++ at this point and learn Rust instead? I was going to learn how to write a game boy emulator, which could be written in either, but I’d also like the language to help me in the professional world as someone getting ready to enter the field.
- eloff 4y ago
  You'll have a harder time finding work, as there aren't a lot of Rust jobs. That's why it's a signal that a person loves their craft - there's little financial incentive in learning it. When it comes to finding work, pick a mainstream language. This will change over time as Rust becomes mainstream, which I think is likely.
  - pwpw 4y ago
    Thanks. My plan will be to follow along https://www.learncpp.com/ https://www.learncpp.com/ and then check out the Rust book later on then. I've found previous success in learning an older language that a newer one can replace (JavaScript to TypeScript) as it helps me understand why devs might prefer the newer language and what it aims to solve. It's a lot of learning, but perhaps that is a necessary evil to grow into a strong developer.
klibertp 4y ago
> People learn Rust because they love their craft. We're exchanging opinions here without any kind of data to back either claim, but let me offer a contrarian view: people who learn niche-language-X because they love their craft are mostly younger folk with little experience in programming. My reasoning for this is that you get less and less time to pursue your love for a programming language when said love competes with love for your SO, your kids, and all the other things that happen to most people later in life. It's anecdotal, but in my experience people who learn niche languages because of love or fashion are not the kind of people who will help write high-quality libraries for the ecosystem. For that, you need a stable, sizeable "middle class" - people who already know what their doing, who were able to evaluate the tool objectively, and who found a real value in it. Such people are not easy to come by: IME by the time they have enough experience, they mostly lost the eagerness to evaluate every shiny new thing that comes along. > The hiring market is way better for Rust because it's not mainstream. I would like to see the statistics you base this opinion on. In my experience (also 20+ years of programming here) this effect is more than offset by the small pool of applicants. > Languages are tools, try to be impartial and pick the best tool for the job. Yes. But you need to account for more than just technical features of a tool, like hiring or the opposition from the existing team to learning the tool. Choosing Rust when you have 20 seasoned, experienced C++ devs just because cargo is better than CMake... might not be the greatest of ideas.
scottLobster 4y ago
And sometimes people who love their craft pick the wrong tool (their favorite) for the job, write really shitty code and are hyper-defensive about it, regardless of the language. I want people who have a history of picking the right tool for the job, and see their job as a team sport instead of a personal art project. Not a hiring manager, but I'd be more interested why someone with knowledge of Rust picked Rust over other options. Mere knowledge of it implies nothing of substance, and I've cleaned up too many mistakes in my career written by people who put their craft ahead of their mission.
fortran77 4y ago
> People learn C++ in college. People learn Rust because they love their craft. I learned Fortran, PL/I and IBM 370 Assembly Language in College. I learned C and then C++ because I loved my craft.
jcdentonunatco 4y ago
"the hiring market is way better for rust" Lmao. Not even close. "Programmers currently using Rust are superior to programmers using C++" Hahahah that's cute.

krona 4y ago

> The language is simpler, cleaner, safer, and more enjoyable to work with. I was a Rust v1 contributor. I have great hopes for the language as a replacement for c in systems engineering. However, I much prefer C++ 20 for the kind of work I do (scientific computing). Rust isn't a competitor to C++ in that arena, in my humble opinion. > Programmers currently using Rust are superior to programmers using C++, statistically speaking The phrase 'statistically speaking' suggests the collection of empirical data. Could you elaborate? > People learn Rust because they love their craft. If Rust becomes popular enough, this will no longer be any truer than for people who learn c++.

auggierose 4y ago
Very interesting. I am working on something that I hope will also appeal to people doing scientific computing. Could you say a few words about why you prefer C++20 over Rust for scientific computing?
slashdev 4y ago
> I was a Rust v1 contributor. I have great hopes for the language as a replacement for c in systems engineering. However, I much prefer C++ 20 for the kind of work I do (scientific computing). Rust isn't a competitor to C++ in that arena, in my humble opinion. There's a lot of domains where Rust isn't an appropriate replacement. Notice I phrased it as "if you have the choice between Rust and C++". Often times because of libraries/frameworks you need, that may not really be a choice. > The phrase 'statistically speaking' suggests the collection of empirical data. Could you elaborate? I don't have data apart from two decades of screening candidates and conducting interviews. I've heard this from other people, including Paul Graham, and I've seen it in my personal experience. I probably should have chosen different wording to not mislead people that this is backed by hard data. > If Rust becomes popular enough, this will no longer be any truer than for people who learn c++. That's how it goes. Python was once a signal for finding better developers. That's no longer true.

thisiswrongggg 4y ago

>> The hiring market is way better for Rust because it's not mainstream. The ratio of C++/rust jobs where I am (EU country) is 5564/54. And these 54 jobs are mostly in cryptocurrencies.

Cthulhu_ 4y ago
I mean the argument is made that Rust is not mainstream, but if you were to pull in e.g. Java or Javascript apps in that comparison I'm confident it would make C++ look like a non-mainstream language too. edit: numbers say I'm wrong, C++ is more mainstream than C#, C is more mainstream than Java: https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/. I mean I doubt this source (it seems to indicate objective-C, which is all but superseded by swift, is on the rise) but it's at least one datapoint.
- izacus 4y ago
  That doesn't really change the fact that the only job you can really get is in cryptoshit markets.
  - supportlocal4h 4y ago
    Or working for Azure, apparently, or Cloudflare, or Amazon, or ... This doesn't change the argument about scarcity in general, but it isn't true that the few jobs that are out there are only in crypto.

_gabe_ 4y ago

> Programmers currently using Rust are superior to programmers using C++ > People learn C++ in college. People learn Rust because they love their craft Wow... and rust programmers wonder why rust has a stigma? So I guess John Carmack is inferior and is not an ultimate craftsman.

School-Cotton 4y ago
You cut out the words “statistically speaking”, which entirely change the meaning.
- jjk166 4y ago
  In what way does it change the meaning? As I read it, "statistically speaking" is just being used as a parenthetical phrase to qualify that they're not trying to argue literally every rust programmer is superior to literally every c++ programmer, and can be safely omitted so long as no one tries to make some dumb argument like "well I've met one bad rust programmer before" or "so and so is a great programmer and they choose c++."
  - School-Cotton 4y ago
    > so and so is a great programmer and they choose c++ Am I crazy? Isn’t that literally exactly what the person I’m responding to was arguing with respect to Carmack?
    - _gabe_ 4y ago
      You cut out part of my full statement which entirely changes the meaning ;) Here it is in context: > So I guess John Carmack is inferior and is not an ultimate craftsman. I didn't realize that their are statistics on what constitutes a craftsman. But I'm willing to change my mind. I'm very curious what those statistics measure though. Edit: Not to mention like peteradio pointed out, what does a statistically superior programmer look like and where do those statistics live?
- peteradio 4y ago

LtWorf 4y ago

grog454 4y ago

Why do you think Rust isn't used more widely?

alkonaut 4y ago
Because total greenfield projects in systems languages is still a pretty rare thing. Writing a new game with a C++ game engine isn't going to count, for example, and that means quite few things will. I actually think it is quite widely used in this small niche. Don't have any data to back it up and my newsfeed is probably biased.

pwpw 4y ago

As someone that is looking to learn one or the other (and hopefully be able to utilize it to land a job too), is the recommendation to skip learning C++ at this point and learn Rust instead? I was going to learn how to write a game boy emulator, which could be written in either, but I’d also like the language to help me in the professional world as someone getting ready to enter the field.

eloff 4y ago
You'll have a harder time finding work, as there aren't a lot of Rust jobs. That's why it's a signal that a person loves their craft - there's little financial incentive in learning it. When it comes to finding work, pick a mainstream language. This will change over time as Rust becomes mainstream, which I think is likely.
- pwpw 4y ago
  Thanks. My plan will be to follow along https://www.learncpp.com/ https://www.learncpp.com/ and then check out the Rust book later on then. I've found previous success in learning an older language that a newer one can replace (JavaScript to TypeScript) as it helps me understand why devs might prefer the newer language and what it aims to solve. It's a lot of learning, but perhaps that is a necessary evil to grow into a strong developer.

klibertp 4y ago

> People learn Rust because they love their craft. We're exchanging opinions here without any kind of data to back either claim, but let me offer a contrarian view: people who learn niche-language-X because they love their craft are mostly younger folk with little experience in programming. My reasoning for this is that you get less and less time to pursue your love for a programming language when said love competes with love for your SO, your kids, and all the other things that happen to most people later in life. It's anecdotal, but in my experience people who learn niche languages because of love or fashion are not the kind of people who will help write high-quality libraries for the ecosystem. For that, you need a stable, sizeable "middle class" - people who already know what their doing, who were able to evaluate the tool objectively, and who found a real value in it. Such people are not easy to come by: IME by the time they have enough experience, they mostly lost the eagerness to evaluate every shiny new thing that comes along. > The hiring market is way better for Rust because it's not mainstream. I would like to see the statistics you base this opinion on. In my experience (also 20+ years of programming here) this effect is more than offset by the small pool of applicants. > Languages are tools, try to be impartial and pick the best tool for the job. Yes. But you need to account for more than just technical features of a tool, like hiring or the opposition from the existing team to learning the tool. Choosing Rust when you have 20 seasoned, experienced C++ devs just because cargo is better than CMake... might not be the greatest of ideas.

scottLobster 4y ago

And sometimes people who love their craft pick the wrong tool (their favorite) for the job, write really shitty code and are hyper-defensive about it, regardless of the language. I want people who have a history of picking the right tool for the job, and see their job as a team sport instead of a personal art project. Not a hiring manager, but I'd be more interested why someone with knowledge of Rust picked Rust over other options. Mere knowledge of it implies nothing of substance, and I've cleaned up too many mistakes in my career written by people who put their craft ahead of their mission.

fortran77 4y ago

> People learn C++ in college. People learn Rust because they love their craft. I learned Fortran, PL/I and IBM 370 Assembly Language in College. I learned C and then C++ because I loved my craft.

jcdentonunatco 4y ago

"the hiring market is way better for rust" Lmao. Not even close. "Programmers currently using Rust are superior to programmers using C++" Hahahah that's cute.