3 ms·

"you start to respect the culture of minorities" That's quite a leap from questioning why the federal government websites aren't translated into local language

by gdy 4y ago

"you start to respect the culture of minorities" That's quite a leap from questioning why the federal government websites aren't translated into local languages. Care to share examples of such disrespect? "Good examples of treatment of minorities are Finland with their treatment of the Swedish minorities there" How would you rate pre-war treatment of language minorities in the Ukraine? "In April 2019, the Ukrainian parliament voted a new law, the Law of Ukraine "to ensure the functioning of the Ukrainian language as the State language". On 16 June 2019, the law entered into force. The law made the use of Ukrainian compulsory (totally or within certain quotas) in the work of some public authorities, in the electoral procedures and political campaigning, in pre-school, school and university education, in scientific, cultural and sporting activities, in book publishing and book distribution, in printed mass media, television and radio broadcasting, in economic and social life (commercial advertising, public events), in hospitals and nursing homes, and in the activities of political parties and other legal entities (e.g. non-governmental organizations) registered in Ukraine." [0] "So at which percentage" Ukrainian answer was 10% [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine

jevgeni 4y ago
That's the same level of laws that you get in Western countries, including Finland. Ukrainian is a state language and public servants must be able to speak it at a minimum.
- gdy 4y ago
  Of course not. Finland has both Swedish and Finnish as state languages and the study of Swedish is mandatory for all citizens [2]. Compare it yourself. Ukraine: "Under the bill, all schools and universities will be required to teach in Ukrainian. All schools and universities are required to teach in Ukrainian, although special exemptions apply to certain ethnic minority languages, to English and to other official languages of the European Union. Contrary to the minority languages which are EU official languages, Russian, Belarusian and Yiddish are granted no exemption for the purposes of the law." [0] Finland: "All teaching from children’s pedagogy to university studies is available in Swedish in Finland." [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine#Analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine#Ana... [1] https://www.svenskfinland.fi/education-in-swedish/ https://www.svenskfinland.fi/education-in-swedish/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Swedish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Swedish
  - jevgeni 4y ago
    "IS AVAILABLE". Teaching in Russian is also available in Ukraine. The problem that law is solving is that Ukrainian isn't available everywhere(!). It's not about optional courses, it's minimal standards. Nobody is preventing schools from teaching russian (as a subject). But Ukrainian is the state language. Are you saying that minimal standards in Ukraine should be education in russian at the cost of ukrainian?
    - gdy 4y ago
      "Teaching in Russian is also available in Ukraine." Not according to the law. It simply had 3 years of grace period, starting from 2019. [1] "members of national minorities who do not speak an official EU language — Byelorussians, Gagauzes, Jews, and, significantly, Russians — will only be able to study at the secondary school level their language as a subject." [0] "But Ukrainian is the state language." And Finland has two state languages. [2] "Are you saying that minimal standards in Ukraine should be education in russian" No, it's what you are saying when you state that Ukraine has "the same level of laws that you get in Western countries, including Finland". [0] https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/?pdf=CDL-AD(2019)032-e https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/?pdf=CDL-AD(20... [1] https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/parliament-passes-ukrainian-language-bill.html https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/parliament-passes-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Finland#Ethnic_minorities_and_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Finland#Ethnic...
      - jevgeni 4y ago
        Literally in the sources you quote: > Classes taught in ethnic minority languages will be allowed at Ukrainian-language schools, and some subjects at Ukrainian-language universities can be taught in English or one of the official languages of the European Union. And yes, maybe the Ukrainian language that has been repressed by russia since 19th century at the latest needs a bit of an affirmative action.
        gdy 4y ago

by gdy 4y ago

jevgeni 4y ago

That's the same level of laws that you get in Western countries, including Finland. Ukrainian is a state language and public servants must be able to speak it at a minimum.

gdy 4y ago
Of course not. Finland has both Swedish and Finnish as state languages and the study of Swedish is mandatory for all citizens [2]. Compare it yourself. Ukraine: "Under the bill, all schools and universities will be required to teach in Ukrainian. All schools and universities are required to teach in Ukrainian, although special exemptions apply to certain ethnic minority languages, to English and to other official languages of the European Union. Contrary to the minority languages which are EU official languages, Russian, Belarusian and Yiddish are granted no exemption for the purposes of the law." [0] Finland: "All teaching from children’s pedagogy to university studies is available in Swedish in Finland." [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine#Analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine#Ana... [1] https://www.svenskfinland.fi/education-in-swedish/ https://www.svenskfinland.fi/education-in-swedish/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Swedish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Swedish
- jevgeni 4y ago
  "IS AVAILABLE". Teaching in Russian is also available in Ukraine. The problem that law is solving is that Ukrainian isn't available everywhere(!). It's not about optional courses, it's minimal standards. Nobody is preventing schools from teaching russian (as a subject). But Ukrainian is the state language. Are you saying that minimal standards in Ukraine should be education in russian at the cost of ukrainian?
  - gdy 4y ago
    "Teaching in Russian is also available in Ukraine." Not according to the law. It simply had 3 years of grace period, starting from 2019. [1] "members of national minorities who do not speak an official EU language — Byelorussians, Gagauzes, Jews, and, significantly, Russians — will only be able to study at the secondary school level their language as a subject." [0] "But Ukrainian is the state language." And Finland has two state languages. [2] "Are you saying that minimal standards in Ukraine should be education in russian" No, it's what you are saying when you state that Ukraine has "the same level of laws that you get in Western countries, including Finland". [0] https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/?pdf=CDL-AD(2019)032-e https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/?pdf=CDL-AD(20... [1] https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/parliament-passes-ukrainian-language-bill.html https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/parliament-passes-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Finland#Ethnic_minorities_and_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Finland#Ethnic...
    - jevgeni 4y ago
      Literally in the sources you quote: > Classes taught in ethnic minority languages will be allowed at Ukrainian-language schools, and some subjects at Ukrainian-language universities can be taught in English or one of the official languages of the European Union. And yes, maybe the Ukrainian language that has been repressed by russia since 19th century at the latest needs a bit of an affirmative action.
      - gdy 4y ago