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I suspect 1000 years of hatred vs 100 years makes no difference. It probably is enough to brainwash some generations (so the living majority would be affected)

I suspect 1000 years of hatred vs 100 years makes no difference. It probably is enough to brainwash some generations (so the living majority would be affected) to have them hate even harder than if that would have been real history. State-level hatred propaganda (what took place in Russia during the recent years is an example but it's a more or less common practice worldwide - there are many rival countries teaching their peoples to hate each other) should be made a number-2 international crime on the UN level, straight after using biological weapons.

thriftwy 4y ago
There is no state-level propagation of ethnic hatred in Russia. If anything, Russian Federation tries to downplay any ethnic differencies since its constituent ethnicities are of very diverse backgrounds and that would be throwing stones in a glass house. If you were projecting the Azero-Armenian conflict on the current Russian war, you are mistaken and if you don't believe me, you can refer to the thread by Kamil Galeev, who I mostly don't agree with but who still makes his point: https://nitter.it/kamilkazani/status/1516162437455654913 https://nitter.it/kamilkazani/status/1516162437455654913 This is not unlike the American wars which were motivated not by ethnic hatred towards people in Middle East but rather by desire to transplant some "better ideas" (such as democracy) there.
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  That was one very interesting thread, very compelling.
- qwerty456127 4y ago
  > There is no state-level propagation of ethnic hatred in Russia. Perhaps, but there obviously is state-level propagation of hatred (that's you who added "ethnic"). It's enough to watch some recordings of top political shows on Russian state-ran channels to clearly see they express hatred (and do that on a regular basis), you don't even have to understand the words they speak. Good for them if they don't propagate open racism, but they certainly do propagate hatred towards other countries (not necessarily ethnicities), their own citizens having different point of view, hatred towards sexual minorities (and that's not about the classic conservative stance to refuse accepting sexual minorities as a norm, that's open propagation of violent hatred).
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    Well, there is certainly strong disdain for some governments of the world, but not towards the people who they manage, whom are potrayed as victims. But government is not the same as citizens and I'm quite confident that any of those speakers would agree with that (since they learned to parrot the politically correct things). And that's exactly the picture which the developed countries have in mind when they talk about other countries, save for the details of regime preference.
    - trhway 4y ago
      >but not towards the people that is not true. On state TV they openly incite hatred toward Ukrainians, call to destroy "Ukrainness", celebrate that school lessons will be only in Russian on the occupied territories. Basically you replace Ukrainian with Jewish and you'll get speeches well familiar from the history. And this is a typical example of what is openly posted and expressed by the patriotic "elites" (and de-facto encouraged by the current political regime), and you don't want to hear how the same ideas sound from the mouths of the "non-elites" https://tgstat.ru/channel/@aftericonproject/1037 https://tgstat.ru/channel/@aftericonproject/1037 "... built into the body of the culture understanding of the totality of intellectual and spiritual superiority of Russians over Ukrainians. ... [as a result of Ukrainian military victories] Ukrainians start to be perceived as a nation comparable to Russians, and that is true nightmare." It is basically Goebbels (with Russians as the "master nation") all over the place these days in Russia. >there is certainly strong disdain for some governments of the world, but not towards the people who they manage, whom are potrayed as victims. That is myth that Soviet and now Russian propaganda have always wanted you to believe. For example Finnish war of 1939 was stated to be against the Finnish imperialist government oppressing Finnish people and not against Finnish people. Well nothing could be more telling than indiscriminate fire bombing of Finnish cities with cluster fire bombs. The same BS about Ukraine war supposedly being waged only against "nazist" Kiev regime and not against Ukrainian people - to the propaganda of ethnic hatred i already described above add the actual genocide and ethnic cleansing that has been going on in Ukraine in the last 7 months - and one can see what it really is.
      - 4y ago
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  Ethnic per se possibly no, but religious definitely yes, racial more on level of ignoring / feeding racism and neonacism. Also what US does is a bit more complex than some naive spread of democracy over and over, everybody saw how it just doesn't work for past 60 years.
- _0w8t 4y ago
  There is a lot of racism in Russia towards people from ethnic minorities. While Russian authorities try to hide it on TV, even there one hears racist jokes in talk shows. When Putin had a talk in a stadium in the spring, the local authorities instructed that people there should be of Slavic type. And then all talks in Russian propaganda about Slavic brotherhood among Russians and Ukrainian and Belarussians always subtly imply that Russians are the big brother.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    Yes there's a lot of ethnic tensions in Russia, and that's why the Russian government will avoid playing the 'ethnic hate' card - until it wants to have the country to rule that is mostly intact. Well, Russians got to be the big brother because they're rather... big. Not just in numbers - they also have the two beating hearts that are Moscow and St. Petersburg. Having said that, on the Ukrainian side there are a lot of historically important places such as Kiev the mother of all Russian cities. And Belarus really has the legacy of Lithuanian Commonwealth which can be viewed as an East Slavic state as a competitor to Russian states.
  - qwerty456127 4y ago
    > even there one hears racist jokes in talk shows. I believe grouping racist jokes together with real racism (real hatred, discrimination, violence) is a strategic mistake. This silently replaces non-racism with political correctness. A diverse society can live in harmony with racist jokes laughing at themselves and their pals. A society standing on political correctness can be full of hypocrisy, prejudice and hatred. > Russians are the big brother. They sort of are, from the economical point of view, but that, allegorically, is a wicked abusive big brother (or cousin perhaps) nobody wants to maintain family ties, let alone live in one house with. Even in real life a younger sibling may happen to be a much nicer person and the elder sibling doesn't have right to keep the younger by force when he wants to move away.
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      Thinking jokes can't be part of "real racism" or that you can draw a clear, distinct and universal line between the two is absolutely foolish. When you look at the worst genocidal atrocities in history or the present world, they don't come out of nowhere. And a gradually escalating normalization of mockery and othering is a clear part of that pattern time and time again. It's not that all racial jokes are terrible on the same level as the worst things you can do here, but when you look at situations where the worst things are happening, the jokes are too and they always came first.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
luckylion 4y ago
> there are many rival countries teaching their peoples to hate each other I'm not sure about this, what countries were you thinking of? In many cases that seems like a one-way-thing.
Taniwha 4y ago
I think it takes 2-3 generations, and almost as long to undo it - Tito in Yugoslavia almost broke the cycle, another generation and they probably would have made it. Northern Ireland is a bit of a miracle, I grieve for what Israel is doing to Palestine, they're on the cusp, or maybe too late

thriftwy 4y ago

There is no state-level propagation of ethnic hatred in Russia. If anything, Russian Federation tries to downplay any ethnic differencies since its constituent ethnicities are of very diverse backgrounds and that would be throwing stones in a glass house. If you were projecting the Azero-Armenian conflict on the current Russian war, you are mistaken and if you don't believe me, you can refer to the thread by Kamil Galeev, who I mostly don't agree with but who still makes his point: https://nitter.it/kamilkazani/status/1516162437455654913 https://nitter.it/kamilkazani/status/1516162437455654913 This is not unlike the American wars which were motivated not by ethnic hatred towards people in Middle East but rather by desire to transplant some "better ideas" (such as democracy) there.

actionfromafar 4y ago
That was one very interesting thread, very compelling.
qwerty456127 4y ago
> There is no state-level propagation of ethnic hatred in Russia. Perhaps, but there obviously is state-level propagation of hatred (that's you who added "ethnic"). It's enough to watch some recordings of top political shows on Russian state-ran channels to clearly see they express hatred (and do that on a regular basis), you don't even have to understand the words they speak. Good for them if they don't propagate open racism, but they certainly do propagate hatred towards other countries (not necessarily ethnicities), their own citizens having different point of view, hatred towards sexual minorities (and that's not about the classic conservative stance to refuse accepting sexual minorities as a norm, that's open propagation of violent hatred).
- thriftwy 4y ago
  Well, there is certainly strong disdain for some governments of the world, but not towards the people who they manage, whom are potrayed as victims. But government is not the same as citizens and I'm quite confident that any of those speakers would agree with that (since they learned to parrot the politically correct things). And that's exactly the picture which the developed countries have in mind when they talk about other countries, save for the details of regime preference.
  - trhway 4y ago
    >but not towards the people that is not true. On state TV they openly incite hatred toward Ukrainians, call to destroy "Ukrainness", celebrate that school lessons will be only in Russian on the occupied territories. Basically you replace Ukrainian with Jewish and you'll get speeches well familiar from the history. And this is a typical example of what is openly posted and expressed by the patriotic "elites" (and de-facto encouraged by the current political regime), and you don't want to hear how the same ideas sound from the mouths of the "non-elites" https://tgstat.ru/channel/@aftericonproject/1037 https://tgstat.ru/channel/@aftericonproject/1037 "... built into the body of the culture understanding of the totality of intellectual and spiritual superiority of Russians over Ukrainians. ... [as a result of Ukrainian military victories] Ukrainians start to be perceived as a nation comparable to Russians, and that is true nightmare." It is basically Goebbels (with Russians as the "master nation") all over the place these days in Russia. >there is certainly strong disdain for some governments of the world, but not towards the people who they manage, whom are potrayed as victims. That is myth that Soviet and now Russian propaganda have always wanted you to believe. For example Finnish war of 1939 was stated to be against the Finnish imperialist government oppressing Finnish people and not against Finnish people. Well nothing could be more telling than indiscriminate fire bombing of Finnish cities with cluster fire bombs. The same BS about Ukraine war supposedly being waged only against "nazist" Kiev regime and not against Ukrainian people - to the propaganda of ethnic hatred i already described above add the actual genocide and ethnic cleansing that has been going on in Ukraine in the last 7 months - and one can see what it really is.
    - 4y ago
saiya-jin 4y ago
Ethnic per se possibly no, but religious definitely yes, racial more on level of ignoring / feeding racism and neonacism. Also what US does is a bit more complex than some naive spread of democracy over and over, everybody saw how it just doesn't work for past 60 years.
_0w8t 4y ago
There is a lot of racism in Russia towards people from ethnic minorities. While Russian authorities try to hide it on TV, even there one hears racist jokes in talk shows. When Putin had a talk in a stadium in the spring, the local authorities instructed that people there should be of Slavic type. And then all talks in Russian propaganda about Slavic brotherhood among Russians and Ukrainian and Belarussians always subtly imply that Russians are the big brother.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  Yes there's a lot of ethnic tensions in Russia, and that's why the Russian government will avoid playing the 'ethnic hate' card - until it wants to have the country to rule that is mostly intact. Well, Russians got to be the big brother because they're rather... big. Not just in numbers - they also have the two beating hearts that are Moscow and St. Petersburg. Having said that, on the Ukrainian side there are a lot of historically important places such as Kiev the mother of all Russian cities. And Belarus really has the legacy of Lithuanian Commonwealth which can be viewed as an East Slavic state as a competitor to Russian states.
- qwerty456127 4y ago
  > even there one hears racist jokes in talk shows. I believe grouping racist jokes together with real racism (real hatred, discrimination, violence) is a strategic mistake. This silently replaces non-racism with political correctness. A diverse society can live in harmony with racist jokes laughing at themselves and their pals. A society standing on political correctness can be full of hypocrisy, prejudice and hatred. > Russians are the big brother. They sort of are, from the economical point of view, but that, allegorically, is a wicked abusive big brother (or cousin perhaps) nobody wants to maintain family ties, let alone live in one house with. Even in real life a younger sibling may happen to be a much nicer person and the elder sibling doesn't have right to keep the younger by force when he wants to move away.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    Thinking jokes can't be part of "real racism" or that you can draw a clear, distinct and universal line between the two is absolutely foolish. When you look at the worst genocidal atrocities in history or the present world, they don't come out of nowhere. And a gradually escalating normalization of mockery and othering is a clear part of that pattern time and time again. It's not that all racial jokes are terrible on the same level as the worst things you can do here, but when you look at situations where the worst things are happening, the jokes are too and they always came first.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

luckylion 4y ago

> there are many rival countries teaching their peoples to hate each other I'm not sure about this, what countries were you thinking of? In many cases that seems like a one-way-thing.

Taniwha 4y ago

I think it takes 2-3 generations, and almost as long to undo it - Tito in Yugoslavia almost broke the cycle, another generation and they probably would have made it. Northern Ireland is a bit of a miracle, I grieve for what Israel is doing to Palestine, they're on the cusp, or maybe too late