3 ms·

> And that's before even considering the tax differences But also before you consider healthcare, transportation, higher cost of living in some desirable areas

by sofixa 4y ago

> And that's before even considering the tax differences But also before you consider healthcare, transportation, higher cost of living in some desirable areas, lack of time off, lack of any employee protections, dismal social safety nets if you fall on bad times. And for people who need that, no maternity leave, expensive childcare, etc. Any person in tech can work their way up to a great lifestyle in Western Europe, and many places in Eastern Europe too for that matter. The salary you get as a new grad/starter is often around the median for the country, so you get quite a comfortable lifestyle (made extra comfortable by the fact that in most cases you don't have to drive everywhere unless you really want to). However, there are property and inheritance taxes in all EU countries i know of.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>Any person in tech can work their way up to a great lifestyle in Western Europe No, not really. In Eastern Europe yeah sure, because that's where the low-tax US remote hiring frenzy went (Poland, Romania, etc), but in most of Western Europe no, take-home tech wages here are depressing, no higher than most other professions unless you work for a rich company in a major tech hub like London, Zurich, Amsterdam, Berlin, etc.
- Delk 4y ago
  I wouldn't say they're depressing unless you compare them to high-end US salaries and those become your expectation. The salaries may be no higher than for lots of other professionals, but those other professionals also make comfortable buck. Not enough to get into the actually rich category, but upper middle class is also pretty comfortable financially. The money isn't enough (for most) to escape the treadmill or to otherwise escape reality, so it can be depressing if your life is otherwise depressing or if you compare it to something really lucrative. But IMO the pay level by itself isn't bad. At least that's my impression of the current market living and working in a locally major city but definitely outside of those major hubs.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >upper middle class is also pretty comfortable financially At 64k/year (2.8k/month take home pay) I can't call myself upper middle class here. Not when an apartment is 500k+ or a house 1MM+. >living and working in a locally major city but definitely outside of those major hubs Can I ask which major city?
    - Delk 4y ago
      I guess housing prices are a bit of an issue. But I think 500k+ for an apartment pretty much suggests either a large city/metro, or a large-ish apartment that you probably wouldn't be paying for alone. And if the interest doesn't drag you down too much (as it might at the moment of course), that n*100k apartment is going to become your property of multiple hundreds of thousands over the years, so it's not like it's only an expense. I get the interest costs, up front payments and general debt amounts can be overwhelming, though. > Can I ask which major city? Helsinki, Finland, so backwater on the European scale, large locally. I'd guess we probably have slightly lower salary levels than some major Western European countries (I'm in the same ballpark as you but senior positions can pay more), and a more or less similar cost of living (except that housing isn't quite as expensive as in major metros).
    - raverbashing 4y ago
      > 64k/year (2.8k/month take home pay) Hummm I'm not so big in discussing specific situations but I've seen better in Europe. And better take home even in high-tax countries Calculating this yearly value for Germany would give 3.6k/month take home
Mvandenbergh 4y ago
The challenge here is at what point in your life is one making the gamble to live in the US vs Western Europe? If I had to pick one or the other to be born in, but knew that I would be born randomly within each of these societies, I'd certainly choose Western Europe because the risk of being born very poor in the US is just too high to take. But! Of course, that isn't a real decision that one can make. The actual decision, for people on HN in particular, is the following: you know that you're a highly qualified person with in-demand skills, you also know whether you have a crippling disability and many other things about your life. Those things being known, the decision is much less of a gamble because you know which of the social categories you will slot into in the US. It is also true that Western Europeans always retain the option of return to their countries of origin. If they become destitute and unable to work, they are able to access the downside protections they would have had at home at the cost of moving back. In practice their may be some transitional challenge because eligibility depends on both residency and citizenship but fundamentally a citizen of France or The Netherlands who becomes unable to work in the US and has exhausted their US resources and entitlements can hit the panic button and will not be allowed to starve once returned home.
zmb_ 4y ago
> But also before you consider healthcare, transportation, higher cost of living in some desirable areas, lack of time off, lack of any employee protections, dismal social safety nets if you fall on bad times. And for people who need that, no maternity leave, expensive childcare, etc. Let me try to add some more concreteness to this. I work for a major US tech company in Western Europe in a "second class" tech hub (i.e., not London or Zurich, but with most of the major tech companies present). Total compensation is low six figures, which is over 1.5x what I was offered by large European companies. On my payslip, my net is about 55% of the gross. I then pay 25% of the net as my half of the rent, and 20% for childcare (in theory you could get it much cheaper, but in practice there are no available spots). On average I've paid 10% of net out-of-pocket for extra healthcare costs not covered by the mandatory insurance (which costs 15% of gross). Compared to my previous job, my gross is now 2x but net 1.4x. My lifestyle is not meaningfully different than when I was making half the gross, I just accumulate some modest savings instead of breaking even. I still have no chance to own a home anywhere near the city I live in. I don't know how I could "work my way to a great lifestyle" here. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong. Overall, my peers in the US have a significantly better lifestyle than me. What I do get that my peers in the US don't (AFAIK) is 30 days of paid holidays. Also my wife can get a year of maternity leave with reasonable benefits. The worker benefits are pretty theoretical, since in practice I have to work well above the tracked hours to be competitive on the career track. I can also still be laid off on reasonably short notice if the company decides to cut costs. I would get 60% of my salary for a year from the state as unemployment, but I would typically not get any severance from the company.

by sofixa 4y ago

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

>Any person in tech can work their way up to a great lifestyle in Western Europe No, not really. In Eastern Europe yeah sure, because that's where the low-tax US remote hiring frenzy went (Poland, Romania, etc), but in most of Western Europe no, take-home tech wages here are depressing, no higher than most other professions unless you work for a rich company in a major tech hub like London, Zurich, Amsterdam, Berlin, etc.

Delk 4y ago
I wouldn't say they're depressing unless you compare them to high-end US salaries and those become your expectation. The salaries may be no higher than for lots of other professionals, but those other professionals also make comfortable buck. Not enough to get into the actually rich category, but upper middle class is also pretty comfortable financially. The money isn't enough (for most) to escape the treadmill or to otherwise escape reality, so it can be depressing if your life is otherwise depressing or if you compare it to something really lucrative. But IMO the pay level by itself isn't bad. At least that's my impression of the current market living and working in a locally major city but definitely outside of those major hubs.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >upper middle class is also pretty comfortable financially At 64k/year (2.8k/month take home pay) I can't call myself upper middle class here. Not when an apartment is 500k+ or a house 1MM+. >living and working in a locally major city but definitely outside of those major hubs Can I ask which major city?
  - Delk 4y ago
    I guess housing prices are a bit of an issue. But I think 500k+ for an apartment pretty much suggests either a large city/metro, or a large-ish apartment that you probably wouldn't be paying for alone. And if the interest doesn't drag you down too much (as it might at the moment of course), that n*100k apartment is going to become your property of multiple hundreds of thousands over the years, so it's not like it's only an expense. I get the interest costs, up front payments and general debt amounts can be overwhelming, though. > Can I ask which major city? Helsinki, Finland, so backwater on the European scale, large locally. I'd guess we probably have slightly lower salary levels than some major Western European countries (I'm in the same ballpark as you but senior positions can pay more), and a more or less similar cost of living (except that housing isn't quite as expensive as in major metros).
  - raverbashing 4y ago
    > 64k/year (2.8k/month take home pay) Hummm I'm not so big in discussing specific situations but I've seen better in Europe. And better take home even in high-tax countries Calculating this yearly value for Germany would give 3.6k/month take home

Mvandenbergh 4y ago

The challenge here is at what point in your life is one making the gamble to live in the US vs Western Europe? If I had to pick one or the other to be born in, but knew that I would be born randomly within each of these societies, I'd certainly choose Western Europe because the risk of being born very poor in the US is just too high to take. But! Of course, that isn't a real decision that one can make. The actual decision, for people on HN in particular, is the following: you know that you're a highly qualified person with in-demand skills, you also know whether you have a crippling disability and many other things about your life. Those things being known, the decision is much less of a gamble because you know which of the social categories you will slot into in the US. It is also true that Western Europeans always retain the option of return to their countries of origin. If they become destitute and unable to work, they are able to access the downside protections they would have had at home at the cost of moving back. In practice their may be some transitional challenge because eligibility depends on both residency and citizenship but fundamentally a citizen of France or The Netherlands who becomes unable to work in the US and has exhausted their US resources and entitlements can hit the panic button and will not be allowed to starve once returned home.

zmb_ 4y ago

> But also before you consider healthcare, transportation, higher cost of living in some desirable areas, lack of time off, lack of any employee protections, dismal social safety nets if you fall on bad times. And for people who need that, no maternity leave, expensive childcare, etc. Let me try to add some more concreteness to this. I work for a major US tech company in Western Europe in a "second class" tech hub (i.e., not London or Zurich, but with most of the major tech companies present). Total compensation is low six figures, which is over 1.5x what I was offered by large European companies. On my payslip, my net is about 55% of the gross. I then pay 25% of the net as my half of the rent, and 20% for childcare (in theory you could get it much cheaper, but in practice there are no available spots). On average I've paid 10% of net out-of-pocket for extra healthcare costs not covered by the mandatory insurance (which costs 15% of gross). Compared to my previous job, my gross is now 2x but net 1.4x. My lifestyle is not meaningfully different than when I was making half the gross, I just accumulate some modest savings instead of breaking even. I still have no chance to own a home anywhere near the city I live in. I don't know how I could "work my way to a great lifestyle" here. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong. Overall, my peers in the US have a significantly better lifestyle than me. What I do get that my peers in the US don't (AFAIK) is 30 days of paid holidays. Also my wife can get a year of maternity leave with reasonable benefits. The worker benefits are pretty theoretical, since in practice I have to work well above the tracked hours to be competitive on the career track. I can also still be laid off on reasonably short notice if the company decides to cut costs. I would get 60% of my salary for a year from the state as unemployment, but I would typically not get any severance from the company.