3 ms·

Yes, imagine air travel was run without deadlines. You've booked a flight on dec 1 at 3pm. You check in, sit at the gate. At 2:40pm you are informed that, sorr

by sooyoo 4y ago

Yes, imagine air travel was run without deadlines. You've booked a flight on dec 1 at 3pm. You check in, sit at the gate. At 2:40pm you are informed that, sorry, the plane isn't actually there yet. It's still on route. We'll fly at 7pm instead. You sit and wait. At 6:45pm you are informed that the plane is there, but the airport is out of fuel. More fuel will be there tomorrow. Rescheduled for next morning at 8am. You wait. At 7:40am next morning you are informed that the pilots are not awake yet. They had a long day yesterday, then went for some drinks, they just had to sleep in today. Rescheduled to 11am. At 10:30am somebody tells you that, well, things are in place but ATC went to a team building event, all flights grounded, but will be back at 4pm. You finally lift off, 25 hours late. Entirely preventable had a deadline be set and all necessary components be scheduled correctly to meet that deadline. Deadlines serve a purpose beyond coersion. There is misuse, but if you widen your horizon then you may realize that not all of it is.

selcuka 4y ago
Obviously the OP is talking about developing and manufacturing a plane, not flying it. Your example is a schedule, not a deadline.
ahaproudowl 4y ago
You are talking about a schedule not deadlines. Of course schedules are required, but safety is the concern. The pilot turns up drunk, she turns up on time, but drunk. Do we stick to the flight deadline?
- sooyoo 4y ago
  > You are talking about a schedule not deadlines. A schedule is a set of events happening at certain time, right? They have to happen at that time since there is a contractual agreement on them happening at that time, and if they don't happen at that previously-agreed-upon time, then there will be negative consequences. That's exactly what a deadline is. My schedule for today says that I am to meet a certain customer today at 3pm. We have a contract with them that stipulates this. In order to be there at 3pm I need to get the train at 2:10pm and for that I need to be done showering latest at 2pm. I can't make it otherwise. 2pm is a deadline for me. Bad things will happen if I don't make it. I can't justsay, oh well, quality just wasn't enough. I had enough time to plan ahead and be in the shower on time.
makeitdouble 4y ago
You're not describing a "creative" situation where you are building something new. If you had to reexplore and reinvent flight routes every single time, yes deadline in that scenario would also become meaningless as you'd have no idea what lies ahead each time. It would be the same as setting a deadline on how long Columbus should take to reach India.
- sooyoo 4y ago
  > You're not describing a "creative" situation where you are building something new. That's true. But the article is not titled "Why deadlines are pointless for creative processes." It's arguing that deadlines are pointless. Always. That's oversimplifying at best, click-baiting at worst. I'd argue that even in a creative process, if you add enough of a safety margin on top of a conservative estimate, then a deadline can be expected to be met with reasonable confidence. This is absolutely necessary for doing business. "We release when it's ready" is a workable strategy when there are no obligations, but claiming that this always works in all other contexts is just not honestly considering other contexts.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    In my experience you choose between schedule and quality, which is in line with your point I think. “We release when it's ready" is focusing on quality only, and deadlines are just fictional dates, and “we release whatever is ready in time” is the real world process, where the product is bargained to whatever can meet the deadline (in the airplane example, that would be redefining your destination as wherever the plane is at the designated landing time, and see you in court if you ever make it back to civilization) I think few people understand that setting deadlines equals to choosing the second strategy though. A mix of both just puts it in the first camp (“deadlines are flexible”)
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Nothing happens in a vaccum, other parties tend to depend on your deliveries whatever they are. And those things are interconnected, if now everybody "focuses on quality" and delays things nothing gets done at all and not just late.
BerislavLopac 4y ago
> You check in, sit at the gate. At 2:40pm you are informed that, sorry, the plane isn't actually there yet. It's still on route. This is pretty much what regularly happens.
toss1 4y ago
I was on a flight like that - literally. Flying to Argentina, via Chile, from NYC. Plane was supposed to leave at 2:00 PM. We all got here at 10:00 AM for the long check-in. Got word the plane would be late, so 3:00 PM. Then 4, then 5, then 7, then 9:00 PM, finally took off at about 9:30 PM, over 7 hours late. It turned out that this was because the incoming flight on this airplane was a 1st class-only flight, and the airline had failed to allocate time in the schedule to swap out the seats so there would be enough for the regular-class passengers. On arriving in Santiago, we had of course missed our connection. So, had to be put up overnight for a flight out the next day. Basically arriving a day late. Had lots of other examples, but indeed, deadlines make no difference whatsoever when the plan fails to match the reality. It is the plan that is important, not the deadline. I can also say from developing software for several major events that occurred at specific times — there is no slipping of the date, ready or not — that the process is much more oriented towards managing the balance of development and scope than all-nighters. Sure, there's a few of those, but the overall key to the making the deadline is having a manager who can keep pruning the tree and keeping distractions at bay.
querulous 4y ago
this is exactly how air travel works though. if your incoming flight is delayed you get delayed regardless of what the schedule says. setting a deadline does nothing to address the lack of a plane. the plane arrives when the plane arrives
- sooyoo 4y ago
  I think you provided an example for the exact opposite of what you wanted to express. An airplane better arrive before running out of fuel. Somewhere, at least. That's a real deadline. You can't negotiate yourself out of that one. Empty tank == you will land NOW. One way or the other. So this is all full of safety margins, extra fuel, alternates, etc etc. But there is a time span which every flight will not exceed. Guaranteed. The pilots better be prepared for this, otherwise they die. A flight is usually structured with many "lesser" deadlines. Latest time to abort takeoff. Latest time to turn to an alternate. Latest time for this-or-that to make for a safe landing. Glide slope. Localizer. The whole procedure to land a plane is full of deadlines. If you miss one, you execute a go around. Until you are out of fuel, then you better nail it. So, no. Deadlines are not pointless. They can make the difference between living and not living.
rdtwo 4y ago
So air travel pose covid?

by sooyoo 4y ago

selcuka 4y ago

Obviously the OP is talking about developing and manufacturing a plane, not flying it. Your example is a schedule, not a deadline.

ahaproudowl 4y ago

You are talking about a schedule not deadlines. Of course schedules are required, but safety is the concern. The pilot turns up drunk, she turns up on time, but drunk. Do we stick to the flight deadline?

sooyoo 4y ago
> You are talking about a schedule not deadlines. A schedule is a set of events happening at certain time, right? They have to happen at that time since there is a contractual agreement on them happening at that time, and if they don't happen at that previously-agreed-upon time, then there will be negative consequences. That's exactly what a deadline is. My schedule for today says that I am to meet a certain customer today at 3pm. We have a contract with them that stipulates this. In order to be there at 3pm I need to get the train at 2:10pm and for that I need to be done showering latest at 2pm. I can't make it otherwise. 2pm is a deadline for me. Bad things will happen if I don't make it. I can't justsay, oh well, quality just wasn't enough. I had enough time to plan ahead and be in the shower on time.

makeitdouble 4y ago

You're not describing a "creative" situation where you are building something new. If you had to reexplore and reinvent flight routes every single time, yes deadline in that scenario would also become meaningless as you'd have no idea what lies ahead each time. It would be the same as setting a deadline on how long Columbus should take to reach India.

sooyoo 4y ago
> You're not describing a "creative" situation where you are building something new. That's true. But the article is not titled "Why deadlines are pointless for creative processes." It's arguing that deadlines are pointless. Always. That's oversimplifying at best, click-baiting at worst. I'd argue that even in a creative process, if you add enough of a safety margin on top of a conservative estimate, then a deadline can be expected to be met with reasonable confidence. This is absolutely necessary for doing business. "We release when it's ready" is a workable strategy when there are no obligations, but claiming that this always works in all other contexts is just not honestly considering other contexts.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  In my experience you choose between schedule and quality, which is in line with your point I think. “We release when it's ready" is focusing on quality only, and deadlines are just fictional dates, and “we release whatever is ready in time” is the real world process, where the product is bargained to whatever can meet the deadline (in the airplane example, that would be redefining your destination as wherever the plane is at the designated landing time, and see you in court if you ever make it back to civilization) I think few people understand that setting deadlines equals to choosing the second strategy though. A mix of both just puts it in the first camp (“deadlines are flexible”)
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Nothing happens in a vaccum, other parties tend to depend on your deliveries whatever they are. And those things are interconnected, if now everybody "focuses on quality" and delays things nothing gets done at all and not just late.

BerislavLopac 4y ago

> You check in, sit at the gate. At 2:40pm you are informed that, sorry, the plane isn't actually there yet. It's still on route. This is pretty much what regularly happens.

toss1 4y ago

I was on a flight like that - literally. Flying to Argentina, via Chile, from NYC. Plane was supposed to leave at 2:00 PM. We all got here at 10:00 AM for the long check-in. Got word the plane would be late, so 3:00 PM. Then 4, then 5, then 7, then 9:00 PM, finally took off at about 9:30 PM, over 7 hours late. It turned out that this was because the incoming flight on this airplane was a 1st class-only flight, and the airline had failed to allocate time in the schedule to swap out the seats so there would be enough for the regular-class passengers. On arriving in Santiago, we had of course missed our connection. So, had to be put up overnight for a flight out the next day. Basically arriving a day late. Had lots of other examples, but indeed, deadlines make no difference whatsoever when the plan fails to match the reality. It is the plan that is important, not the deadline. I can also say from developing software for several major events that occurred at specific times — there is no slipping of the date, ready or not — that the process is much more oriented towards managing the balance of development and scope than all-nighters. Sure, there's a few of those, but the overall key to the making the deadline is having a manager who can keep pruning the tree and keeping distractions at bay.

querulous 4y ago

this is exactly how air travel works though. if your incoming flight is delayed you get delayed regardless of what the schedule says. setting a deadline does nothing to address the lack of a plane. the plane arrives when the plane arrives

sooyoo 4y ago
I think you provided an example for the exact opposite of what you wanted to express. An airplane better arrive before running out of fuel. Somewhere, at least. That's a real deadline. You can't negotiate yourself out of that one. Empty tank == you will land NOW. One way or the other. So this is all full of safety margins, extra fuel, alternates, etc etc. But there is a time span which every flight will not exceed. Guaranteed. The pilots better be prepared for this, otherwise they die. A flight is usually structured with many "lesser" deadlines. Latest time to abort takeoff. Latest time to turn to an alternate. Latest time for this-or-that to make for a safe landing. Glide slope. Localizer. The whole procedure to land a plane is full of deadlines. If you miss one, you execute a go around. Until you are out of fuel, then you better nail it. So, no. Deadlines are not pointless. They can make the difference between living and not living.

rdtwo 4y ago

So air travel pose covid?