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US salaries are often triple even Western European salaries. Like at Amazon I earnt about $75k in Western Europe, the same job in the USA would be $165k (you c

US salaries are often triple even Western European salaries. Like at Amazon I earnt about $75k in Western Europe, the same job in the USA would be $165k (you can see the bands). And that's before even considering the tax differences. The USA is the land of opportunity where you can really work your way up to a great lifestyle whereas Europe pays peanuts and then punishes you with extortionate income tax (but often no property or inheritance taxes).

oblio 4y ago
> The USA is the land of opportunity where you can really work your way up to a great lifestyle It is, but that's if you don't mind the less fortunate folks starving. Not starving, but ending up as homeless drug addicts. And the large number of working poor. The US is a land of extremes among developed countries.
- badpun 4y ago
  > It is, but that's if you don't mind the less fortunate folks starving. Not starving, but ending up as homeless drug addicts. There are homeless drug addicts and alcoholics everywhere. > And the large number of working poor. Yep, the working poor are better off in Europe, esp. in places like Denmark or Norway. They can actually have somewhat non-shitty life, even when working minimum wage jobs.
  - Sharlin 4y ago
    > There are homeless drug addicts and alcoholics everywhere. The question is how many, of course. There are no homeless villages in my country, neither is there a massive-scale opiate abuse problem.
    - badpun 4y ago
      Perhaps it's just too cold for the homeless villages to form? The homeless would have a hard time surviving winter in tents in Europe. Even the very southern ends don't get nearly as warm winters as Los Angeles, which has a climate of Morocco.
      - Sharlin 4y ago
        Most homeless people (at least around here) don’t literally live outside but in various temporary arrangements. Yes, in colder climates it is a more pressing social problem to get people inside from literal freezing conditions. But that’s definitely not the reason there are fewer homeless in Europe than in the US. Long-term homeless people tend to be either those who refuse help (and cannot be helped against their will) or those that the system has failed due to misguided right-wing policies like "sobriety first" which is totally backwards.
        badpun 4y ago
        At the bottom of things, the homelessness is just a symptom, while the root cause is mental illness or people living self-destructive lives (addicts, people who just don't care what happens to them and have no care for the future etc.). It's no longer 1930s, where "normal" people could genuinely be homeless because of economic difficulties. Sure, it occasionally happens now as well, but such people generally disappear from the streets within months (as they get a job and get back on their feet), not spend their entire lives on them. In general, people care about homelessness, because it affects and offends them - so their solutions are to give some place to live to the homeless. It doesn't solve the problem though, as the homeless will still either be mentally ill or will engage in self-destructive behaviour - so they're quite likely to demolish the place, set it on fire, turn it into a crack den etc. But, the society does not ultimately care about that that much, but mostly wants to not have their moods ruined by seeing homeless on the streets - so warehousing them somewhere is seen as a good solution.
        Sharlin 4y ago
        Unfortunately, at least around here, in one of the most "welfare" of welfare states, a major cause of homelessness is substance abuse (traditionally alcoholism) caused by insufficient social safety nets (almost always males who have undergone a major crisis in life such as a divorce or a loss of job, exacerbated by various toxic norms associated with masculinity such as the expectation of self-sufficiency). People who "live self-destructive lives" have not always done so; at some point something has gone wrong in their lives. It is not an identity or (usually) an inborn personality trait, and "othering" people with addictions like that is simply an example of the correspondence bias and a part of the meme complex that maintains the status quo of homelessness. In a representative democracy, we elect representatives in the hopes that they have a decisionmaking and problem-solving ability more holistic and less short-sighted than just "out of sight, out of mind". At least, that's what the ideal is. The process can be abused by populists good at appealing to people's intuitions and emotions while having few real solutions, but that doesn't mean we should just give up!
    - rightbyte 4y ago
      > homeless villages You mean like tents and sheds? Otherwise it is an oxymoron with a village of homeless people.
      - Sharlin 4y ago
        Yes, obviously.
sofixa 4y ago
> And that's before even considering the tax differences But also before you consider healthcare, transportation, higher cost of living in some desirable areas, lack of time off, lack of any employee protections, dismal social safety nets if you fall on bad times. And for people who need that, no maternity leave, expensive childcare, etc. Any person in tech can work their way up to a great lifestyle in Western Europe, and many places in Eastern Europe too for that matter. The salary you get as a new grad/starter is often around the median for the country, so you get quite a comfortable lifestyle (made extra comfortable by the fact that in most cases you don't have to drive everywhere unless you really want to). However, there are property and inheritance taxes in all EU countries i know of.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >Any person in tech can work their way up to a great lifestyle in Western Europe No, not really. In Eastern Europe yeah sure, because that's where the low-tax US remote hiring frenzy went (Poland, Romania, etc), but in most of Western Europe no, take-home tech wages here are depressing, no higher than most other professions unless you work for a rich company in a major tech hub like London, Zurich, Amsterdam, Berlin, etc.
  - Delk 4y ago
    I wouldn't say they're depressing unless you compare them to high-end US salaries and those become your expectation. The salaries may be no higher than for lots of other professionals, but those other professionals also make comfortable buck. Not enough to get into the actually rich category, but upper middle class is also pretty comfortable financially. The money isn't enough (for most) to escape the treadmill or to otherwise escape reality, so it can be depressing if your life is otherwise depressing or if you compare it to something really lucrative. But IMO the pay level by itself isn't bad. At least that's my impression of the current market living and working in a locally major city but definitely outside of those major hubs.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >upper middle class is also pretty comfortable financially At 64k/year (2.8k/month take home pay) I can't call myself upper middle class here. Not when an apartment is 500k+ or a house 1MM+. >living and working in a locally major city but definitely outside of those major hubs Can I ask which major city?
rsynnott 4y ago
> The USA is the land of opportunity where you can really work your way up to a great lifestyle While Americans tend to _believe_ this, and it may be true in some small parts of the economy, overall the US today has notably poor economic mobility as compared to other OECD countries: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/02/14/americans-overestimate-social-mobility-in-their-country https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/02/14/american...
- safety1st 4y ago
  I believe his point is correct relative to the tech industry and your point is correct relative to the greater US economy. American tech pays really well and you really can start out in low places and go on to make great money. But overall the situation for the lower and lower-middle class in the US is pretty rough because cost of living has outpaced wages. Both are outcomes of globalization. Tech workers have it so good because the US exports its tech to the whole world, the market for US FAANG is billions of consumers strong and other countries offer limited competition. But other American workers have been replaced/outsourced/offshored in great numbers, entire industries have largely evacuated the US because it's so open to foreign products.
  - rsynnott 4y ago
    > Both are outcomes of globalization. Eh. With the notable exception of Germany, most large developed economies are de-industrialising to some extent (and the UK, for instance, has done so to a much greater extent than the US), but even amongst rapidly de-industrialising countries the US's economic mobility story is not great, these days. As with most things, there is no single easy answer for why this is the case.
- krsrhe 4y ago
- torginus 4y ago
  I'm sorry, but this is one of those articles that shows just enough statistics to support their conclusion. It misses the fact that the US has a much higher concentration of wealth at the top than most European economies. So the social mobility might be lacking in terms of quintiles, in absolute terms (income in USD or EUR/standard of living), real social mobility might still be higher.
sschueller 4y ago
"The USA is the land of opportunity where you can really work your way up to a great lifestyle..." Good luck with that if you get sick or injured even if it wasn't your fault...
raverbashing 4y ago
Funny, I don't see many Europeans buying this story

oblio 4y ago

> The USA is the land of opportunity where you can really work your way up to a great lifestyle It is, but that's if you don't mind the less fortunate folks starving. Not starving, but ending up as homeless drug addicts. And the large number of working poor. The US is a land of extremes among developed countries.

badpun 4y ago
> It is, but that's if you don't mind the less fortunate folks starving. Not starving, but ending up as homeless drug addicts. There are homeless drug addicts and alcoholics everywhere. > And the large number of working poor. Yep, the working poor are better off in Europe, esp. in places like Denmark or Norway. They can actually have somewhat non-shitty life, even when working minimum wage jobs.
- Sharlin 4y ago
  > There are homeless drug addicts and alcoholics everywhere. The question is how many, of course. There are no homeless villages in my country, neither is there a massive-scale opiate abuse problem.
  - badpun 4y ago
    Perhaps it's just too cold for the homeless villages to form? The homeless would have a hard time surviving winter in tents in Europe. Even the very southern ends don't get nearly as warm winters as Los Angeles, which has a climate of Morocco.
    - Sharlin 4y ago
      Most homeless people (at least around here) don’t literally live outside but in various temporary arrangements. Yes, in colder climates it is a more pressing social problem to get people inside from literal freezing conditions. But that’s definitely not the reason there are fewer homeless in Europe than in the US. Long-term homeless people tend to be either those who refuse help (and cannot be helped against their will) or those that the system has failed due to misguided right-wing policies like "sobriety first" which is totally backwards.
      - badpun 4y ago
        At the bottom of things, the homelessness is just a symptom, while the root cause is mental illness or people living self-destructive lives (addicts, people who just don't care what happens to them and have no care for the future etc.). It's no longer 1930s, where "normal" people could genuinely be homeless because of economic difficulties. Sure, it occasionally happens now as well, but such people generally disappear from the streets within months (as they get a job and get back on their feet), not spend their entire lives on them. In general, people care about homelessness, because it affects and offends them - so their solutions are to give some place to live to the homeless. It doesn't solve the problem though, as the homeless will still either be mentally ill or will engage in self-destructive behaviour - so they're quite likely to demolish the place, set it on fire, turn it into a crack den etc. But, the society does not ultimately care about that that much, but mostly wants to not have their moods ruined by seeing homeless on the streets - so warehousing them somewhere is seen as a good solution.
        Sharlin 4y ago
        Unfortunately, at least around here, in one of the most "welfare" of welfare states, a major cause of homelessness is substance abuse (traditionally alcoholism) caused by insufficient social safety nets (almost always males who have undergone a major crisis in life such as a divorce or a loss of job, exacerbated by various toxic norms associated with masculinity such as the expectation of self-sufficiency). People who "live self-destructive lives" have not always done so; at some point something has gone wrong in their lives. It is not an identity or (usually) an inborn personality trait, and "othering" people with addictions like that is simply an example of the correspondence bias and a part of the meme complex that maintains the status quo of homelessness. In a representative democracy, we elect representatives in the hopes that they have a decisionmaking and problem-solving ability more holistic and less short-sighted than just "out of sight, out of mind". At least, that's what the ideal is. The process can be abused by populists good at appealing to people's intuitions and emotions while having few real solutions, but that doesn't mean we should just give up!
  - rightbyte 4y ago
    > homeless villages You mean like tents and sheds? Otherwise it is an oxymoron with a village of homeless people.
    - Sharlin 4y ago
      Yes, obviously.

sofixa 4y ago

> And that's before even considering the tax differences But also before you consider healthcare, transportation, higher cost of living in some desirable areas, lack of time off, lack of any employee protections, dismal social safety nets if you fall on bad times. And for people who need that, no maternity leave, expensive childcare, etc. Any person in tech can work their way up to a great lifestyle in Western Europe, and many places in Eastern Europe too for that matter. The salary you get as a new grad/starter is often around the median for the country, so you get quite a comfortable lifestyle (made extra comfortable by the fact that in most cases you don't have to drive everywhere unless you really want to). However, there are property and inheritance taxes in all EU countries i know of.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>Any person in tech can work their way up to a great lifestyle in Western Europe No, not really. In Eastern Europe yeah sure, because that's where the low-tax US remote hiring frenzy went (Poland, Romania, etc), but in most of Western Europe no, take-home tech wages here are depressing, no higher than most other professions unless you work for a rich company in a major tech hub like London, Zurich, Amsterdam, Berlin, etc.
- Delk 4y ago
  I wouldn't say they're depressing unless you compare them to high-end US salaries and those become your expectation. The salaries may be no higher than for lots of other professionals, but those other professionals also make comfortable buck. Not enough to get into the actually rich category, but upper middle class is also pretty comfortable financially. The money isn't enough (for most) to escape the treadmill or to otherwise escape reality, so it can be depressing if your life is otherwise depressing or if you compare it to something really lucrative. But IMO the pay level by itself isn't bad. At least that's my impression of the current market living and working in a locally major city but definitely outside of those major hubs.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >upper middle class is also pretty comfortable financially At 64k/year (2.8k/month take home pay) I can't call myself upper middle class here. Not when an apartment is 500k+ or a house 1MM+. >living and working in a locally major city but definitely outside of those major hubs Can I ask which major city?

rsynnott 4y ago

> The USA is the land of opportunity where you can really work your way up to a great lifestyle While Americans tend to _believe_ this, and it may be true in some small parts of the economy, overall the US today has notably poor economic mobility as compared to other OECD countries: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/02/14/americans-overestimate-social-mobility-in-their-country https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/02/14/american...

safety1st 4y ago
I believe his point is correct relative to the tech industry and your point is correct relative to the greater US economy. American tech pays really well and you really can start out in low places and go on to make great money. But overall the situation for the lower and lower-middle class in the US is pretty rough because cost of living has outpaced wages. Both are outcomes of globalization. Tech workers have it so good because the US exports its tech to the whole world, the market for US FAANG is billions of consumers strong and other countries offer limited competition. But other American workers have been replaced/outsourced/offshored in great numbers, entire industries have largely evacuated the US because it's so open to foreign products.
- rsynnott 4y ago
  > Both are outcomes of globalization. Eh. With the notable exception of Germany, most large developed economies are de-industrialising to some extent (and the UK, for instance, has done so to a much greater extent than the US), but even amongst rapidly de-industrialising countries the US's economic mobility story is not great, these days. As with most things, there is no single easy answer for why this is the case.
krsrhe 4y ago
torginus 4y ago
I'm sorry, but this is one of those articles that shows just enough statistics to support their conclusion. It misses the fact that the US has a much higher concentration of wealth at the top than most European economies. So the social mobility might be lacking in terms of quintiles, in absolute terms (income in USD or EUR/standard of living), real social mobility might still be higher.

sschueller 4y ago

"The USA is the land of opportunity where you can really work your way up to a great lifestyle..." Good luck with that if you get sick or injured even if it wasn't your fault...

raverbashing 4y ago

Funny, I don't see many Europeans buying this story