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That old 'victim mentality' traps people into not realising they have agency and power to improve their lives. Thanks for the comment :)

by chubs 4y ago

WalterBright 4y ago
I frequently set my karma afire when I suggest that people have agency. I'll just channel Sam Kinison here: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/qelMhlI6f_o https://www.youtube.com/shorts/qelMhlI6f_o one of the few comedians that made me laugh so hard it was painful and hard to breathe. May he RIP.
- oblio 4y ago
  People have agency but one anecdote of a co-worker with bad judgment does not suddenly make everyone stuck in a miserable situation through no fault of their own, suddenly better.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    People have agency, meaning they can take responsibility for their situation (in a free country) and do something about it.
    - oblio 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_poverty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_poverty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_and_Dimed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_and_Dimed It's much easier for people to take responsibility for their situation if they're at least middle class. Personal responsibility helps, but it's not a society wide solution. That's why our cars are made of metal and have a million systems to prevent and alleviate crashes. Our planes have checklists 10 feet long before they take off. People have agency and that agency should be helped. Look at Sweden, where there are a ton of what the US would call "handouts", and Sweden, as a result, has one of the highest per capita rates of entrepreneurship. Turns out, yeah, some people just sit on their butts all day long if you give them money, but statistically, most people want to be productive. And at the end of the day, you're better off. Add a bunch of guardrails to reduce abuse.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        > It's much easier for people to take responsibility for their situation if they're at least middle class. The US developed from poor immigrants with nothing more than a suitcase. Why do you think millions of poor people try to get into the US? (And the US has tons of handouts and wealth redistribution programs.)
        oblio 4y ago
        > The US developed from poor immigrants with nothing more than a suitcase. Back in the day when all you needed for a job was a strong back. That time has passed.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        Has it? There's a lot of demand for unskilled labor.
        oblio 4y ago
        Does it help pay rent or a mortgage or for a decent college these days? You know that inflation (both consumer goods and real estate and education) has moved the goal posts a ton. I don't want to use the b-word on HN :-p
    - nmeagent 4y ago
      Everything has a cost, especially time. They may have agency to improve their situation, but the time scale to do so (due to lack of savings, location, or whatever) may be ridiculous. People also have incomplete information; they could burn their resources to change your situation over the course of a decade and ultimately end up in a far worse situation. It only takes a few cycles of this for someone's time to actually run out. Agency is necessary but insufficient.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        Having agency also means taking responsibility for making bad choices. Having agency bootstrapped scores of millions of poor immigrants to the US into the middle class.
    - andrepd 4y ago
      "Free" is not a boolean. There are myriad constraints in life that prevent a person from being fully responsible for his or her situation (while of course I concede that "everything is outside my control" is also an untenable position to have). Obviously improving your life (materially/financially speaking) requires many things: at the very least abilities and luck, and often: education, pre-existing wealth, being clear from physical disabilities and mental disorders, a stable family situation with no significant dependents, etc. Pinning everything on the individual, and furthermore on reasons for which the individual bears sole responsibility, is a major fallacy of our society.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        Start from the premise that you do have agency, and you'll find there's a heluva lot you can do. Remember,"lucky" people make their own luck, and are good at putting themselves in a position where luck can find them. "Luck" also often appears disguised as work.
        andrepd 4y ago
        > Remember,"lucky" people make their own luck, and are good at putting themselves in a position where luck can find them. "Luck" also often appears disguised as work. This is obviously not true. I don't even know how to even begin to argue this point, it is patently obvious that luck plays a major factor in everything you do, whether you recognize it or not. Unfortunately, nobody does likes to recognize that the status they have is because of (wholly or partially) luck :) That's why rulers invented the divine right of kings (or the Mandate of Heaven or the deification of Roman Emperors or what have you), and that's why modern capitalists insist on the "self-made man" mythos. PS: Before anybody calls me a lazy bum waiting for handouts or some similar variation, I am pretty successful. I also recognize that while I did work hard and made sacrifices, a large part of it is down to luck: I was in the right places at the right times, met the right people, made decisions on impulse that turned out to work out great. Nevermind the overarching stuff: I was born in a middle-class family in a peaceful and stable country, I could go to school and have reasonably good teachers, I was never hungry or cold or sick or unloved, my parents supported me financially until I was 25 and started to make my own money.
- andrepd 4y ago
  > I frequently set my karma afire when I suggest Finally, at least a bit of variation on the old "I know I'll get downvoted for this unpopular opinion, but" :)

That old 'victim mentality' traps people into not realising they have agency and power to improve their lives. Thanks for the comment :)

by chubs 4y ago

That old 'victim mentality' traps people into not realising they have agency and power to improve their lives. Thanks for the comment :)

WalterBright 4y ago

I frequently set my karma afire when I suggest that people have agency. I'll just channel Sam Kinison here: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/qelMhlI6f_o https://www.youtube.com/shorts/qelMhlI6f_o one of the few comedians that made me laugh so hard it was painful and hard to breathe. May he RIP.

oblio 4y ago
People have agency but one anecdote of a co-worker with bad judgment does not suddenly make everyone stuck in a miserable situation through no fault of their own, suddenly better.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  People have agency, meaning they can take responsibility for their situation (in a free country) and do something about it.
  - oblio 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_poverty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_poverty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_and_Dimed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_and_Dimed It's much easier for people to take responsibility for their situation if they're at least middle class. Personal responsibility helps, but it's not a society wide solution. That's why our cars are made of metal and have a million systems to prevent and alleviate crashes. Our planes have checklists 10 feet long before they take off. People have agency and that agency should be helped. Look at Sweden, where there are a ton of what the US would call "handouts", and Sweden, as a result, has one of the highest per capita rates of entrepreneurship. Turns out, yeah, some people just sit on their butts all day long if you give them money, but statistically, most people want to be productive. And at the end of the day, you're better off. Add a bunch of guardrails to reduce abuse.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      > It's much easier for people to take responsibility for their situation if they're at least middle class. The US developed from poor immigrants with nothing more than a suitcase. Why do you think millions of poor people try to get into the US? (And the US has tons of handouts and wealth redistribution programs.)
      - oblio 4y ago
        > The US developed from poor immigrants with nothing more than a suitcase. Back in the day when all you needed for a job was a strong back. That time has passed.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        Has it? There's a lot of demand for unskilled labor.
        oblio 4y ago
        Does it help pay rent or a mortgage or for a decent college these days? You know that inflation (both consumer goods and real estate and education) has moved the goal posts a ton. I don't want to use the b-word on HN :-p
  - nmeagent 4y ago
    Everything has a cost, especially time. They may have agency to improve their situation, but the time scale to do so (due to lack of savings, location, or whatever) may be ridiculous. People also have incomplete information; they could burn their resources to change your situation over the course of a decade and ultimately end up in a far worse situation. It only takes a few cycles of this for someone's time to actually run out. Agency is necessary but insufficient.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      Having agency also means taking responsibility for making bad choices. Having agency bootstrapped scores of millions of poor immigrants to the US into the middle class.
  - andrepd 4y ago
    "Free" is not a boolean. There are myriad constraints in life that prevent a person from being fully responsible for his or her situation (while of course I concede that "everything is outside my control" is also an untenable position to have). Obviously improving your life (materially/financially speaking) requires many things: at the very least abilities and luck, and often: education, pre-existing wealth, being clear from physical disabilities and mental disorders, a stable family situation with no significant dependents, etc. Pinning everything on the individual, and furthermore on reasons for which the individual bears sole responsibility, is a major fallacy of our society.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      Start from the premise that you do have agency, and you'll find there's a heluva lot you can do. Remember,"lucky" people make their own luck, and are good at putting themselves in a position where luck can find them. "Luck" also often appears disguised as work.
      - andrepd 4y ago
        > Remember,"lucky" people make their own luck, and are good at putting themselves in a position where luck can find them. "Luck" also often appears disguised as work. This is obviously not true. I don't even know how to even begin to argue this point, it is patently obvious that luck plays a major factor in everything you do, whether you recognize it or not. Unfortunately, nobody does likes to recognize that the status they have is because of (wholly or partially) luck :) That's why rulers invented the divine right of kings (or the Mandate of Heaven or the deification of Roman Emperors or what have you), and that's why modern capitalists insist on the "self-made man" mythos. PS: Before anybody calls me a lazy bum waiting for handouts or some similar variation, I am pretty successful. I also recognize that while I did work hard and made sacrifices, a large part of it is down to luck: I was in the right places at the right times, met the right people, made decisions on impulse that turned out to work out great. Nevermind the overarching stuff: I was born in a middle-class family in a peaceful and stable country, I could go to school and have reasonably good teachers, I was never hungry or cold or sick or unloved, my parents supported me financially until I was 25 and started to make my own money.
andrepd 4y ago
> I frequently set my karma afire when I suggest Finally, at least a bit of variation on the old "I know I'll get downvoted for this unpopular opinion, but" :)