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Imagine if, after criticising the panel gaps on a Tesla, a representative from Lego points out that Lego cars don't have this problem and that Lego has a steadf

Imagine if, after criticising the panel gaps on a Tesla, a representative from Lego points out that Lego cars don't have this problem and that Lego has a steadfast commitment to precise tolerances. As someone who uses (and is continually appreciative of) multiple AirGradient-derived devices throughout my house, my immediate reaction was one of confusion given how monstrously incomparable your product is to an iPhone. AirGradient hardware is little more than a plastic box and a relatively basic PCB which makes around a dozen connections between few off-the-shelf prototyping components which need direct exposure to room air — they can't be sealed or weatherproofed. Repairability is literally the default state for this class of product; making it less repairable would have required more effort. Apple devices weren't made difficult to repair because Apple actively despised repairers. They were difficult to repair because Apple lacked sufficient concern over repairability and had other priorities such as as thickness, weight, simplification and efficiency of manufacturing.

kramerger 4y ago
> Apple devices weren't made difficult to repair because Apple actively despised repairers. IIRC the front panel uses DRM to stop unauthorized screen replacement.
- threeseed 4y ago
  Which is to make the device secure for users who are Apple's highest priority. It's amazing to me that developers, resellers etc seem to forget this.
  - teitoklien 4y ago
    This is a bad excuse. 0.002% of our customers need security against sophisticated hackers who have the capability to hijack a repair service and replace it with a spying custom made iphone screen replacement. Let’s make screen repairs 5-7x more expensive for 100% of our customers ! That will get the hackers ! Yea, right.... If you’re that paranoid about your security, go to an authorized apple repair centre which doesn’t bother repairing the parts and just charges you to replace the entire circuitry. No one’s stopping you. Leave the rest of us, alone from this.
    - simondotau 4y ago
      My opinion of this dismissive attitude towards security, were I to express it with sufficient honesty, would probably get me banned from Hacker News. It is the hardware equivalent of “only people with something to hide need encryption”.
      - teitoklien 4y ago
        It is not. Encryption issue is about banning it altogether. This is about user choice in terms of repairability. This excuse is more to the equivalent of , we are banning all communication in plaintext or any encryption standard, except aes-256. Everyone has different requirements, choice and deserve the freedom. Companies dont get to excuse away freedom and choice, in the name of “security”.
        simondotau 4y ago
        > Companies dont get to excuse away freedom and choice Companies don't owe you freedom and choice. If you don't like their product, if you don't like their concern for your freedom and choice, don't buy it.
        teitoklien 4y ago
        Now you’re just being defensive. We were critiquing a product, now you’re saying, companies dont owe us the right to criticise their product, and that we must move elsewhere instead of complaining. one second you’re saying “it’s for our benefit”, the next, you want us to stop using the product, because we aren’t “owed anything”.
        simondotau 4y ago
        When did I say that companies don’t owe you “the right to criticise their product”? I didn’t say that. Arguments with a dishonest interlocutor are frightfully boring. Reply as you see fit, but I’m closing this thread and not looking at it again.
  - _V_ 4y ago
    Please explain to me how pairing a screen, vibration motor and battery to the motherboard keeps me secure... I'd understand faceid (which is paired of course), sure. But not these. I really have a strong feeling that some folks have Stockholm syndrome or something.
    - simondotau 4y ago
      For the record, I don't think Apple does this entirely for security. I think they do it to stop the illegal distribution of items which leak from Apple's supply chain, as well as counterfeit goods sold as though equal in quality to Apple parts. (I know multiple people who have had non-genuine screen replacements and they've always been low quality fragile glass.) If someone tried to sell whole iPhones assembled entirely from parts leaked from Apple's supply chain, it ought to seem obvious to anyone that this is wrong. Why is the principle any different when it's not an entire iPhone?
      - _V_ 4y ago
        If they sold the parts outright with resonable pricing as any other manufacturer I don't think there would be any reason for supply chain leaks... Why would it be any different for Apple?
        simondotau 4y ago
        I agree that spare parts should be more widely available, but I take issue with your broader assertion. Are you seriously arguing that when something is too expensive, theft is justified? Hmmm, I always wanted a Ferrari.
        _V_ 4y ago
        Wow that strawman is really quite poor. I really hope you can do better than that... If you want a Ferrari, go buy one. They have quite long waiting lists from what I've heard. edit: In order not to be completely off topic: Apple might have just the same problems with parts stolen from their suppliers but since every single iPhone needs to be activated, I'm very sure they would be able to catch "iPhones made entirely from stolen parts". So this is clearly not it. The fact that they don't sell anything will probably make this whole thing quite worse because if you could buy a genuine display for 250$ from Apple, why would you really buy from anyone else? That market would of course exist but it would be much much smaller. I would not expect them to sell motherboards or for exampe face id sensors without some kind of pairing. But batteries and LCDs? Come on! They are doing it just to stick it to anyone who wants to repair their device. Quite sad when you think about the origins of that company :-(
  - bearmode 4y ago
    Why are you just taking Apple's claims at face value?
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    "Security" is an excuse that Apple (and other anti-repair companies) love to use and it disappoints me to see people fall for it on a technical forum like this one. It is debatable whether the devices that are restricted have any security impact to begin with (the fingerprint or face recognition sensors should just be untrusted input devices with the actual comparison happening inside the secure element of the CPU - compromising this device wouldn't give you anything you don't already have), but either way, even if there was a security impact, you can always let the user choose by giving them the (per-device) keys to override said security.
- restore_creole_ 4y ago
  Or, to be generous, it is to prevent the use of stolen components? Foxconn workers reportedly stole US$43 million worth of iPhone parts to make new phones https://www.scmp.com/abacus/news-bites/article/3042987/foxconn-workers-reportedly-stole-us43-million-worth-iphone-parts https://www.scmp.com/abacus/news-bites/article/3042987/foxco...
- jquery 4y ago
  No, it’s to make stolen iPhones worthless.
  - _V_ 4y ago
    Yeah, but it does not make it worthless at all... Even broken logic board is worth quite a lot so this argument is really more of a wishfull thinking than a reality.
    - jquery 4y ago
      ”worth less” then instead of worthless
ahaucnx 4y ago
That is a good point. I believe you are having our DIY air quality kits that are as you describe very simple. Our commercial product AirGradient ONE has a much more complex PCB with tons of additional components e.g. DC DC converter to run it from 12-36v, modbus chip, external hardware watchdogs etc. We have made a lot of comparisons to other air quality monitors and there is a significance difference in the repaiarbility, e.g. I broke an enclosure of a competitor because it was glued together and just couldn't be opened easily. Yes, iPhones are by a magnitude more complex products but I think a lot also boils down to attitude. I believe for a long time (and probably still), Apple made it conciously very difficult to repair/upgrade their product e.g. with proprietory screws, glued batteries, etc. Look at the Fairphone that is a phone and also allows easy replacement of components. If they can do it, why not Apple? Maybe because so far they did not want to?
- vertis 4y ago
  For the most part phone consumers don't really care about this though, at least not at the point of purchase. If you're going to offer a choice between easier repair and the newest feature, say a new camera sensor, and that makes it harder to repair, they're going to pick the better camera. (I accept that Apple is actively hostile to repairers as well) If it was a hugely important element, the Fairphone would be the market leader vs Samsung/Apple. As you no doubt know, it varies depending on the audience. If you have a nerdy DIY audience, or a technical enterprise tech audience they're going to come with different requirements.
- simondotau 4y ago
  Your reply makes no sense in the context of the article. They have just now shown that they do want to. Proprietary/security screws don’t inhibit anyone from opening a phone other than those who would have no hope of doing anything beyond causing further damage with 100% certainty. Anyone with a sufficiently curious ten-year-old ought to be particularly thankful here. Obscure security screws are common throughout the industry and are rarely ever the reason why a device is difficult to repair by anyone for whom success is within the set of possible outcomes.
  - 4y ago

kramerger 4y ago

> Apple devices weren't made difficult to repair because Apple actively despised repairers. IIRC the front panel uses DRM to stop unauthorized screen replacement.

threeseed 4y ago
Which is to make the device secure for users who are Apple's highest priority. It's amazing to me that developers, resellers etc seem to forget this.
- teitoklien 4y ago
  This is a bad excuse. 0.002% of our customers need security against sophisticated hackers who have the capability to hijack a repair service and replace it with a spying custom made iphone screen replacement. Let’s make screen repairs 5-7x more expensive for 100% of our customers ! That will get the hackers ! Yea, right.... If you’re that paranoid about your security, go to an authorized apple repair centre which doesn’t bother repairing the parts and just charges you to replace the entire circuitry. No one’s stopping you. Leave the rest of us, alone from this.
  - simondotau 4y ago
    My opinion of this dismissive attitude towards security, were I to express it with sufficient honesty, would probably get me banned from Hacker News. It is the hardware equivalent of “only people with something to hide need encryption”.
    - teitoklien 4y ago
      It is not. Encryption issue is about banning it altogether. This is about user choice in terms of repairability. This excuse is more to the equivalent of , we are banning all communication in plaintext or any encryption standard, except aes-256. Everyone has different requirements, choice and deserve the freedom. Companies dont get to excuse away freedom and choice, in the name of “security”.
      - simondotau 4y ago
        > Companies dont get to excuse away freedom and choice Companies don't owe you freedom and choice. If you don't like their product, if you don't like their concern for your freedom and choice, don't buy it.
        teitoklien 4y ago
        Now you’re just being defensive. We were critiquing a product, now you’re saying, companies dont owe us the right to criticise their product, and that we must move elsewhere instead of complaining. one second you’re saying “it’s for our benefit”, the next, you want us to stop using the product, because we aren’t “owed anything”.
        simondotau 4y ago
        When did I say that companies don’t owe you “the right to criticise their product”? I didn’t say that. Arguments with a dishonest interlocutor are frightfully boring. Reply as you see fit, but I’m closing this thread and not looking at it again.
- _V_ 4y ago
  Please explain to me how pairing a screen, vibration motor and battery to the motherboard keeps me secure... I'd understand faceid (which is paired of course), sure. But not these. I really have a strong feeling that some folks have Stockholm syndrome or something.
  - simondotau 4y ago
    For the record, I don't think Apple does this entirely for security. I think they do it to stop the illegal distribution of items which leak from Apple's supply chain, as well as counterfeit goods sold as though equal in quality to Apple parts. (I know multiple people who have had non-genuine screen replacements and they've always been low quality fragile glass.) If someone tried to sell whole iPhones assembled entirely from parts leaked from Apple's supply chain, it ought to seem obvious to anyone that this is wrong. Why is the principle any different when it's not an entire iPhone?
    - _V_ 4y ago
      If they sold the parts outright with resonable pricing as any other manufacturer I don't think there would be any reason for supply chain leaks... Why would it be any different for Apple?
      - simondotau 4y ago
        I agree that spare parts should be more widely available, but I take issue with your broader assertion. Are you seriously arguing that when something is too expensive, theft is justified? Hmmm, I always wanted a Ferrari.
        _V_ 4y ago
        Wow that strawman is really quite poor. I really hope you can do better than that... If you want a Ferrari, go buy one. They have quite long waiting lists from what I've heard. edit: In order not to be completely off topic: Apple might have just the same problems with parts stolen from their suppliers but since every single iPhone needs to be activated, I'm very sure they would be able to catch "iPhones made entirely from stolen parts". So this is clearly not it. The fact that they don't sell anything will probably make this whole thing quite worse because if you could buy a genuine display for 250$ from Apple, why would you really buy from anyone else? That market would of course exist but it would be much much smaller. I would not expect them to sell motherboards or for exampe face id sensors without some kind of pairing. But batteries and LCDs? Come on! They are doing it just to stick it to anyone who wants to repair their device. Quite sad when you think about the origins of that company :-(
- bearmode 4y ago
  Why are you just taking Apple's claims at face value?
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  "Security" is an excuse that Apple (and other anti-repair companies) love to use and it disappoints me to see people fall for it on a technical forum like this one. It is debatable whether the devices that are restricted have any security impact to begin with (the fingerprint or face recognition sensors should just be untrusted input devices with the actual comparison happening inside the secure element of the CPU - compromising this device wouldn't give you anything you don't already have), but either way, even if there was a security impact, you can always let the user choose by giving them the (per-device) keys to override said security.
restore_creole_ 4y ago
Or, to be generous, it is to prevent the use of stolen components? Foxconn workers reportedly stole US$43 million worth of iPhone parts to make new phones https://www.scmp.com/abacus/news-bites/article/3042987/foxconn-workers-reportedly-stole-us43-million-worth-iphone-parts https://www.scmp.com/abacus/news-bites/article/3042987/foxco...
jquery 4y ago
No, it’s to make stolen iPhones worthless.
- _V_ 4y ago
  Yeah, but it does not make it worthless at all... Even broken logic board is worth quite a lot so this argument is really more of a wishfull thinking than a reality.
  - jquery 4y ago
    ”worth less” then instead of worthless

ahaucnx 4y ago

That is a good point. I believe you are having our DIY air quality kits that are as you describe very simple. Our commercial product AirGradient ONE has a much more complex PCB with tons of additional components e.g. DC DC converter to run it from 12-36v, modbus chip, external hardware watchdogs etc. We have made a lot of comparisons to other air quality monitors and there is a significance difference in the repaiarbility, e.g. I broke an enclosure of a competitor because it was glued together and just couldn't be opened easily. Yes, iPhones are by a magnitude more complex products but I think a lot also boils down to attitude. I believe for a long time (and probably still), Apple made it conciously very difficult to repair/upgrade their product e.g. with proprietory screws, glued batteries, etc. Look at the Fairphone that is a phone and also allows easy replacement of components. If they can do it, why not Apple? Maybe because so far they did not want to?

vertis 4y ago
For the most part phone consumers don't really care about this though, at least not at the point of purchase. If you're going to offer a choice between easier repair and the newest feature, say a new camera sensor, and that makes it harder to repair, they're going to pick the better camera. (I accept that Apple is actively hostile to repairers as well) If it was a hugely important element, the Fairphone would be the market leader vs Samsung/Apple. As you no doubt know, it varies depending on the audience. If you have a nerdy DIY audience, or a technical enterprise tech audience they're going to come with different requirements.
simondotau 4y ago
Your reply makes no sense in the context of the article. They have just now shown that they do want to. Proprietary/security screws don’t inhibit anyone from opening a phone other than those who would have no hope of doing anything beyond causing further damage with 100% certainty. Anyone with a sufficiently curious ten-year-old ought to be particularly thankful here. Obscure security screws are common throughout the industry and are rarely ever the reason why a device is difficult to repair by anyone for whom success is within the set of possible outcomes.
- 4y ago