9 ms·

This is similar to what bodyshops used to do 15+ years ago to the developers they brought in on H1Bs. To prevent them from jumping ship once they are in the cou

• Swizec 4y ago
  Oh you don’t even need to charge anything for H1Bs to work as indentured servitude. The visa says who you’re allowed to work for. Leave the company (or get fired or laid off) and you have 10 days to leave the country or find another job that will sponsor your visa. As you can imagine few people choose to leave the company under these conditions. Best part is that companies can also appeal to the employee’s sense of fairness: “We paid $10,000 for your visa. You value that favor from us don’t you? Imagine if you had to pay that yourself”
  • notch656a 4y ago
    I don't even get what the incentive is to become an H1B nowadays. Work under some insane visa requirements with often fuck all chance of actually becoming a citizen unless you roll a magic dice roll over and over. Or stay home, contract out remotely for $10 an hour or whatever shit pay contracting gets which works out to be a god damn fortune in rural India or China (most H1B come from one of those two countries).
    • int_19h 4y ago
      Not everyone moves for economic reason alone. Moving from the third world to the first also brings a certain degree of social and political stability, less crime, and generally fewer risks in life. Consider someone in, say, rural Russia or Ukraine working that way - and then 2022 happens. (I know that many Americans think that the sky is falling on them, too - and they may even be correct, but they have a very different baseline.)
      • notch656a 4y ago
        I reject the notion one is denigrating America or what it has to offer by calling out the insane tight-rope one has to walk through the H1B process. Just because I don't play the lottery doesn't mean I don't think it has a great prize.
        • int_19h 4y ago
          I didn't mean to imply that. I'm merely telling you why people are willing to tolerate it. FWIW, I am a former H1B immigrant, myself.
          • notch656a 4y ago
            I'm glad you're here brother.
      • kelnos 4y ago
        Sure, but consider that there are many places in the world other than the US that have much more sane immigration policies, and are also very nice (some might say nicer than the US) to live in. It's not like the only options are "the US, or a poverty-stricken third-world country".
        • cat_plus_plus 4y ago
          A couple of US governors will be happy to provide free transportation to send migrants to those wonderful countries of yours. Sounds like a win/win proposition?
          • kelnos 4y ago
            That's a bit of an uncharitable interpretation of what I said. I have nothing against immigration. The US was built by immigrants, and continues to be built by immigrants. My ancestors have been in the US for only a little over 100 years, and I've benefited greatly from the lack of immigration controls we had a century ago. My point was simply that the poster I originally replied to seemed to be taking the angle that the US is pretty much the only game in town if you want "social and political stability, less crime, and generally fewer risks in life" (their words). That's demonstrably untrue! Many countries other than the US provide those things, and many of them treat potential immigrants (especially those with in-demand professional qualifications) a lot better than the US government does. I can certainly understand someone wanting to move to the US, specifically, for whatever reason, but if the goal is just to move from somewhere socially/politically unstable, with lots of crime and risks to life, to somewhere that is... not that... then there are many great choices that are not the US. The reason I bring that up is because I have quite a few close friends who are in various stages of US immigration, some on H-1Bs for over a decade now, and I wouldn't wish that level of life uncertainty on anyone. They've chosen to stick it out over time until they get their green cards, but if someone is considering getting an H-1B today, especially if they are from a country with a huge green card line, I would probably try to dissuade them, as there are many other options with a great quality of life, where they wouldn't have to feel like their held hostage to the US immigration system -- and, by extension, the employer sponsoring their visa.
    • deltree7 4y ago
      • treeman79 4y ago
        Great response!
        • notch656a 4y ago
          US is such great country, every time I enter it I get thrown in a cell and detained for 16+ hours, cavity searched, fraudulent warrants obtained, and border patrol officers taking me to hospitals against my will putting me thousands of dollars into debt over absolutely insane accusations of having drugs up my ass. Greatest country in world! I love the American people but the government has gone completely off its rocker post 9/11. ---------------- >The detainee has to pay for hospital scans ? Yes. [0] I was taken to the same hospital as this woman. Although I refuse the scans (scans require consent) so instead they hold me under involuntary observation until they can search materials from the body. Holy Cross hospital in Nogales AZ. Also St. Mary's Hospital in Tucson. Also Sound Physicians Network under which the doctors work in the hospital. The Arizona nursing board has agreed not to pursue action against medical providers acting in concert with border patrol, even if they have no court order, warrant, or patient consent. [0] https://tucson.com/news/local/border/woman-sues-customs-over-body-cavity-search-which-hospital-billed-her-for/article_b11cacb8-326c-11e6-b85d-7becd2e71d17.html https://tucson.com/news/local/border/woman-sues-customs-over...
          • kortilla 4y ago
            > every time I enter it Why would you keep repeating this process? Either you’re an actual drug smuggler or you enjoy the drama.
          • mgoetzke 4y ago
            The detainee has to pay for hospital scans ?
          • Ekaros 4y ago
            You know all of that is fault of the citizenry of the country... The elected those who decided those things and allow them to continue on. There is nothing great with people there.
    • nivenkos 4y ago
      US salaries are often triple even Western European salaries. Like at Amazon I earnt about $75k in Western Europe, the same job in the USA would be $165k (you can see the bands). And that's before even considering the tax differences. The USA is the land of opportunity where you can really work your way up to a great lifestyle whereas Europe pays peanuts and then punishes you with extortionate income tax (but often no property or inheritance taxes).
      • oblio 4y ago
        > The USA is the land of opportunity where you can really work your way up to a great lifestyle It is, but that's if you don't mind the less fortunate folks starving. Not starving, but ending up as homeless drug addicts. And the large number of working poor. The US is a land of extremes among developed countries.
        • badpun 4y ago
          > It is, but that's if you don't mind the less fortunate folks starving. Not starving, but ending up as homeless drug addicts. There are homeless drug addicts and alcoholics everywhere. > And the large number of working poor. Yep, the working poor are better off in Europe, esp. in places like Denmark or Norway. They can actually have somewhat non-shitty life, even when working minimum wage jobs.
          • Sharlin 4y ago
            > There are homeless drug addicts and alcoholics everywhere. The question is how many, of course. There are no homeless villages in my country, neither is there a massive-scale opiate abuse problem.
            • badpun 4y ago
              Perhaps it's just too cold for the homeless villages to form? The homeless would have a hard time surviving winter in tents in Europe. Even the very southern ends don't get nearly as warm winters as Los Angeles, which has a climate of Morocco.
    • microtherion 4y ago
      The subset of employers who actually want to hire their H1Bs for the long term will initiate a Green Card application process for them, and once the worker has that, they can stay indefinitely (and, de facto, apply for citizenship eventually if that's what they want). The disadvantage of a Green Card from the employer's perspective is that the worker is then free to change employment, so not all companies pursue this this.
      • darkarmani 4y ago
        The real answer is to make H1Bs transferable between jobs. H1Bs are limited, so what does it matter which company they work for? That would reduce exploitation done under H1Bs and keeping salaries low.
    • UncleMeat 4y ago
      A good friend of mine is an Indian citizen and is also gay. Being able to live and work in a country that grants them something resembling legal equality is pretty damn valuable.
  • kareemsabri 4y ago
    > Leave the company (or get fired or laid off) and you have 10 days to leave the country or find another job that will sponsor your visa. I don't think this is correct. There's a 60 day grace period if you leave (voluntarily or otherwise) before the visa expires. Still too tight in my opinion, but not 10 days which is insane.
• kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  It also helps inflate the lie that they're paid a "prevailing wage".
• benj111 4y ago
  Body shops? I guess you don't mean www.thebodyshop.com ???
  • benj111 4y ago
    Why the down vote? Genuine question. If I Google, all I get is results for the well known shop. (in this country)
    • TheCapeGreek 4y ago
      It just means a company that hires in bulk for low wages and churns people regularly. To them, you're just a body in a seat, no matter the kind of work you do.
      • benj111 4y ago
        Ok thanks. I kind of inferred that, wasn't sure if there was more to it though.
  • paraselene_ 4y ago
    They meant workshops that perform automotive body panel restoration work.
    • benj111 4y ago
      >bodyshops used to do 15+ years ago to the developers 'developers' would suggest not.
• Frost1x 4y ago
  Healthcare providers through rural areas (much of the US) do this often. They contract out specialized health professionals because the local economies and regions struggle to attract and retain healthcare professionals and cant produce enough locally either. As a result, many regional healthcare salaries balloon when you normalize cost of living. Healthcare professionals start getting a bigger cut of federal subsidies (Medicare, Medicaid) and risk pools (insurance). Several bodyshops popped up that specialize in international recruitment, sponsor healthcare workers internationally who expect significantly lower comp, and work out the logistics of getting them licensed, sponsored, and moved where demand exists (note that I say logistics, the person often pays some or all of these fees). They offer a low rate to these international workers (which is high to them) by your typical position advertising gymnastics then rent them out to healthcare providers in set contracts. The worker signs a contract that typically includes a fee for breach of contract. For nurses and physical therapists, I've seen it at $20-$40k which doesn't seem significant until you consider the person likely has nothing of that magnitude in savings because they came from a poorer area. You then may think, well healthcare workers can make $100+k so with strict savings one could limit their indentured servitude and breach before, then realize they're actually paying closer to $40-60k to their workers, benefiting of economies of scale to manage the logistics (like managing visas) and pocketing the rest of the margins. The workers are often locked into these areas for several years before they're financially stable enough to leave while bodyshops dangle greencard sponsorship over their heads which is a long process in and of itself but is even longer when it's a carrot held for 3-5 years of servitude first. Once your workers have their greencards they have more leverage in negotiation and typically move on to make truly competitive salaries. Meanwhile, the bodyshops basically pocket high margins, manage a little bit of risk, and just leech off those in desperate situations (hospitals, their patients, and international workers looking to better themselves). Some may say this is just the cost of admission to immigrate to the US. I think it's more a failure of neoliberal principles. I imagine IT isn't much different. The work visa program is largely used as just a leveraged global labor recruitment position for businesses to exploit. It wasn't designed this way and isn't always used this way, but it is done far far too often.