5 ms·

You can like something and still admit that it is awful. I "liked" C for a long time before there were better options...

ghoward 4y ago
I still disagree that it's awful.
- bravura 4y ago
  The argument you are missing: Your position is bespoke and incompatible. You don't use idioms in your C code. You use idiolect. Thus, you exist in your own universe and are a party of one. And the clue was something you might not expect... I programmed C++ for five years, and C for over ten years before that. I don't know rust, but I followed this discussion with great interest. One of the topics that came up several times was being able to identify who wrote what C++ code based upon their choice of language subset without using blame. In the pro-rust arguments and C++ counter-arguments and rust counter-counter-arguments and C++ counter-counter-counter arguments in discussions above yours, I was pleasantly surprised to see that grandfather comments were rarely (never?) the same author. At least the rust and C++ arguments were made by different people sharing some sort of group mentality. Then I hit your thread and saw the grandchild comment: "I understand you think it's awful, but I do like it. Everyone has their preference." and I was like: "Okay. I bet grandparent is also ghoward." The simple fact that no one is chiming in to grandchild your arguments is the point that you're missing. In fact, the entire subthreads you've spawned involve basically ghoward defending ghoward's position. It's nice when other people can take over your work. That's what we're after.
  - ghoward 4y ago
    It's not lost on me at all. I prefer to finish software. [1] I get it to where it needs to be and put it in maintenance mode. I don't accept outside contributions. [2] I prefer to work alone to keep the scope of my software manageable and to reduce communication overhead. And to avoid working with people. People are too complicated. I obsessively document my software. [3] I comment all of my code. I wrote design documents and requirements lists. I write documents about the source code, its concepts, and how to understand and read it. I turn my code into something that can be studied and used far into the future. Most programmers are not like Donald Knuth. But there are a few that are. I'm one of them. Please let me be like that. Don't make me work like everyone else because I can't; I've tried. I'm fine if you all want to use Rust. I even said to use it by default in my first post. You all seem unhappy that I do not want to use Rust. I don't get why. I'm defending my position because it appears you all think it's not acceptable. You're wrong. [1]: https://gavinhoward.com/2019/11/finishing-software/ https://gavinhoward.com/2019/11/finishing-software/ [2]: https://git.yzena.com/Yzena/Yc#open-source-not-open-contribution https://git.yzena.com/Yzena/Yc#open-source-not-open-contribu... [3]: https://git.yzena.com/gavin/bc/src/branch/master/manuals/development.md https://git.yzena.com/gavin/bc/src/branch/master/manuals/dev...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - gonzus 4y ago
      I was going to start this reply by saying "I am not necessarily defending / supporting ghoward's position", but after I read his whole reply, I realize I am. I enjoy writing C (more than C++); I do not find it awful. If you cannot accept that, then there is nothing I can say to change your mind. What I don't understand is this atavistic obsession that "everyone must migrate to rust now", and "C is so dangerous in can explode in your hands while you are sleeping". Please, go forth and multiply, and use rust to your heart's content. But be more open minded to the fact that there are people who like, enjoy or even love using C. As for me, I admit I have gone from interested in rust, to neutral, to an active dislike, because this narrow-mindedness some of its proponents show.
      - mustache_kimono 4y ago
        You do you. Maybe it isn't said often enough, but each side (Rust-lovers and Rust-haters) has to be confident enough to allow others to disagree. However, let's be serious, the anti-Rust crowd has not been some bastion of high-minded virtue with its flimsy arguments ("Just write better code..." and "Modern C++ doesn't have these issues..."), mole hill matters of taste ("Egads! The syntax!"), drive by hype hate, and unexplained red-herring cul de sacs ("I doesn't have a spec!" Okay, why do you need a spec?). > I'm defending my position because it appears you all think it's not acceptable. You're wrong. I'm not sure this and sentiments like it represent something less narrow-minded? Most of the time, it seems kinda resentful?
        ghoward 4y ago
        Because it is. And it is because you all say things that imply people like me are terrible, awful, evil, no-good, very bad people for not using Rust. We are not. We just have different preferences. You all have also implied that we are negligent for using C. I don't know about others, but I have not been. That's why I have the challenge to break a release of my `bc`. I actually have not been negligent because I do put in the effort required to eliminate memory bugs as much as possible. Until the RESF refrains from implying we are bad or negligent for not using Rust, we will be resentful.

ghoward 4y ago

I still disagree that it's awful.

bravura 4y ago
The argument you are missing: Your position is bespoke and incompatible. You don't use idioms in your C code. You use idiolect. Thus, you exist in your own universe and are a party of one. And the clue was something you might not expect... I programmed C++ for five years, and C for over ten years before that. I don't know rust, but I followed this discussion with great interest. One of the topics that came up several times was being able to identify who wrote what C++ code based upon their choice of language subset without using blame. In the pro-rust arguments and C++ counter-arguments and rust counter-counter-arguments and C++ counter-counter-counter arguments in discussions above yours, I was pleasantly surprised to see that grandfather comments were rarely (never?) the same author. At least the rust and C++ arguments were made by different people sharing some sort of group mentality. Then I hit your thread and saw the grandchild comment: "I understand you think it's awful, but I do like it. Everyone has their preference." and I was like: "Okay. I bet grandparent is also ghoward." The simple fact that no one is chiming in to grandchild your arguments is the point that you're missing. In fact, the entire subthreads you've spawned involve basically ghoward defending ghoward's position. It's nice when other people can take over your work. That's what we're after.
- ghoward 4y ago
  It's not lost on me at all. I prefer to finish software. [1] I get it to where it needs to be and put it in maintenance mode. I don't accept outside contributions. [2] I prefer to work alone to keep the scope of my software manageable and to reduce communication overhead. And to avoid working with people. People are too complicated. I obsessively document my software. [3] I comment all of my code. I wrote design documents and requirements lists. I write documents about the source code, its concepts, and how to understand and read it. I turn my code into something that can be studied and used far into the future. Most programmers are not like Donald Knuth. But there are a few that are. I'm one of them. Please let me be like that. Don't make me work like everyone else because I can't; I've tried. I'm fine if you all want to use Rust. I even said to use it by default in my first post. You all seem unhappy that I do not want to use Rust. I don't get why. I'm defending my position because it appears you all think it's not acceptable. You're wrong. [1]: https://gavinhoward.com/2019/11/finishing-software/ https://gavinhoward.com/2019/11/finishing-software/ [2]: https://git.yzena.com/Yzena/Yc#open-source-not-open-contribution https://git.yzena.com/Yzena/Yc#open-source-not-open-contribu... [3]: https://git.yzena.com/gavin/bc/src/branch/master/manuals/development.md https://git.yzena.com/gavin/bc/src/branch/master/manuals/dev...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - gonzus 4y ago
    I was going to start this reply by saying "I am not necessarily defending / supporting ghoward's position", but after I read his whole reply, I realize I am. I enjoy writing C (more than C++); I do not find it awful. If you cannot accept that, then there is nothing I can say to change your mind. What I don't understand is this atavistic obsession that "everyone must migrate to rust now", and "C is so dangerous in can explode in your hands while you are sleeping". Please, go forth and multiply, and use rust to your heart's content. But be more open minded to the fact that there are people who like, enjoy or even love using C. As for me, I admit I have gone from interested in rust, to neutral, to an active dislike, because this narrow-mindedness some of its proponents show.
    - mustache_kimono 4y ago
      You do you. Maybe it isn't said often enough, but each side (Rust-lovers and Rust-haters) has to be confident enough to allow others to disagree. However, let's be serious, the anti-Rust crowd has not been some bastion of high-minded virtue with its flimsy arguments ("Just write better code..." and "Modern C++ doesn't have these issues..."), mole hill matters of taste ("Egads! The syntax!"), drive by hype hate, and unexplained red-herring cul de sacs ("I doesn't have a spec!" Okay, why do you need a spec?). > I'm defending my position because it appears you all think it's not acceptable. You're wrong. I'm not sure this and sentiments like it represent something less narrow-minded? Most of the time, it seems kinda resentful?
      - ghoward 4y ago
        Because it is. And it is because you all say things that imply people like me are terrible, awful, evil, no-good, very bad people for not using Rust. We are not. We just have different preferences. You all have also implied that we are negligent for using C. I don't know about others, but I have not been. That's why I have the challenge to break a release of my `bc`. I actually have not been negligent because I do put in the effort required to eliminate memory bugs as much as possible. Until the RESF refrains from implying we are bad or negligent for not using Rust, we will be resentful.