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The C/C++ people hate it when you call it C/C++.
by MathMonkeyMan 4y ago
The C/C++ people hate it when you call it C/C++.
- klysm 4y ago“It’s time to halt starting any new projects in C or C++”
- Kranar 4y agoThat's a fairly recent thing that some people do as a kind of virtue signaling. The "C/C++ Users Journal" was a very popular publication and no one took issue with its name. Nor do people take issue with Dr. Dobbs which has a "C/C++" section with articles from highly influential members of the C/C++ community. C++ is a complex language, so people invent ways to show how dedicated they are to it, and nowadays that means pretending to get all worked up over the term "C/C++".
- MathMonkeyMan 4y agoC/C++ is undefined if C is an instance of an integral type.
- zem 4y agoit's just 1/++
- im3w1l 4y agoI think it's also that idiomatic C++ is evolving further and further away from anything resembling C. So it's turning from C with extra features into a completely separate language that happens to interoperate well with C.
- woodruffw 4y agoThis is true. It's also true that, in terms of abstract machine semantics, C++ is the closest language to C. Similarly, in terms of optimizing compiler implementations, they're the two "core" languages implemented by most frontends. The grouping of "C/C++" makes sense in both of these contexts, at the minimum.
- unglaublich 4y agoC/C++ is as naïve as ASM/C or Ape/Human. You come up with examples that are over 30 years old.
- Kranar 4y agoYes my examples are old because the entire point I'm making is that this outrage over "C/C++" is a relatively recent phenomenon. People 10-20 years ago didn't really care or take issue with that term.
- wahern 4y ago> That's a fairly recent thing that some people do as a kind of virtue signaling. If by recent you mean well over 20 years ago. When I began learning C circa 2000, I used to hang out on comp.lang.c, and "C/C++" was very much frowned upon. And for good reason--people felt entitled to ask C++ questions in a C newsgroup, which was and remains a poor idea. Even if they were asking questions relevant to both, e.g. regarding pointers, it's still a much better idea to ask in a C++ newsgroup. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem There are people (invariably young) who resist newsgroup etiquette, convinced the etiquette is pointless, or something like virtue signaling. Over the decades they eventually come around to appreciating the wisdom, even if there's never a mea culpa. The commercial software world, and especially the Windows world, often had a much different culture than what developed online, especially in the FOSS and Unix subcultures. For the latter especially, C++ was relatively uncommon until the 21st century. C++ (with KDE, etc) and then Python had the effect of importing or creating whole new subcultures in these communities without any memory or appreciation of the pre-existing culture.
- Kranar 4y agoNot seeing evidence of your claim. A simple search on comp.lang.c for C/C++ turns up plenty of results and no one, not a single person, is calling it out. Infact there's plenty of discussion on an almost daily basis discussing the two languages almost seamlessly. Looks like there's even a alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++ newsgroup as well. For reference I also did a search from 1998 to 2002... once again no one cares or is objecting to the term C/C++ and that term is used quite often. From this search I also just learned that Microsoft's own compiler uses the term "C/C++". Furthermore, if something is relevant to both languages, such as a question involving pointers, why would it be a bad idea to ask about it in a C newsgroup? If anything, it's preferable to ask a question that is pertinent to both languages, especially one involving pointers, in the C newsgroup. Certainly asking a strictly C++ question in a C newsgroup would be off-topic and rightly so, but asking a question about pointers or other low-level details that are applicable to both languages is perfectly fine in a C newsgroup.
- wahern 4y ago
- DoingIsLearning 4y agoThe distinction actually makes perfect sense during the hiring process. If a recruiter approaches me with a C/C++ gig then I will immediately assume that either the hiring manager doesn't know what they want or the hiring manager didn't actually write the job specs, none of those scenarios sends a positive signal.
- kazinator 4y ago> That's a fairly recent thing that some people do as a kind of virtue signaling. It was a pretty common correction the comp.lang.c newsgroup in the 1990s. "Hey you dolt, there is no C/C++; they are different languages." "Oh yeah? Well look at how when I run cl.exe, it says Microsoft C/C++ compiler!" "Haha, C/C++ is actually undefined behavior: C++ is modified and independently accessed in the same expression ..."
- woodruffw 4y agoI certainly don't. Although I also write Rust now, so I suspect someone will accuse me of having split loyalties or something equally ridiculous. The only context in which I care about "C/C++" is on resumes, where it's a sign that I need to ask a little more about the person's background.
- pengaru 4y ago> The only context in which I care about "C/C++" is on resumes, where it's a sign that I need to ask a little more about the person's background. Is that because you'd expect anyone actually experienced in either to know better than to lump them together so casually?
- woodruffw 4y agoNot necessarily -- I've interviewed plenty of people where "C/C++" meant "experienced in both, but most work was in C with a small smattering of C++" (or vice versa). In my experience, it breaks roughly between half that and half recent graduates who took one C course and one C++ course.
- BenFrantzDale 4y agoFor me, I see “C/C++” as a sign they see C++ (which I’m looking for experience in) as interchangeable with C. I want people who grok C++’s ability to build powerful abstractions, not people messing around with it as C with polymorphic classes.
- ncmncm 4y agoYes. "C/C++" on a résumé is a red flag. "Next!"
- ncmncm 4y agoIt's a sign of a liar, and you can round-file it without reading any more.
- JonChesterfield 4y ago
- LAC-Tech 4y agoFair enough. I'll stick to C and C++/Rust.
- mappu 4y agoYou see it a lot more often from the Microsoft world since MSVC only supported "C/C++" as a combined language, there was no separate C compiler.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y agoThey had a C compiler for kernel drivers.
- sidewndr46 4y agoReally? I don't know much about microsoft's internal architecture after Windows 98. But they maintained a separate compiler for what was basically just kernel modules?
- kevin_thibedeau 4y agoIt was a command line only tool distributed with the driver dev kit. It had ABI differences with MSVC that required them to keep it around until relatively recently.
- pclmulqdq 4y agoMSVC is a C++ compiler only. It doesn't actually support C.
- teruakohatu 4y agoIt does support C, most recently the C11 and C17 ISO standards. https://devblogs.microsoft.com/cppblog/c11-and-c17-standard-support-arriving-in-msvc/ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/cppblog/c11-and-c17-standard-...
- latency-guy2 4y agoIt does, but I know why you have this interpretation and I think it's fair to have it. MS only created their compiler to support C all the way up to C89 and it's original standard, with some Microsoftisms in it. MS did not update their compiler to support C99 and subsequent updates until, I think the late 2010s. Since then, they have updated and supported some of the newest C standards.
- omoikane 4y agoI personally don't see this level of pedantry from the people I work with. Even if C90/C99/C11/C++98/C++11/C++17/etc are all different, we understand people use "C/C++" to mean "that pervasive family of languages which most systems and libraries are built on".
- madmulita 4y agoIt's GNU/C/C++ !!!
- another2another 4y agoThe correct name is GNU Visual Clang++