5 ms·

The data is what makes them so good at keeping you on their platform, yes. But that data isn't inherently useful to the CCP. I think what GP is getting at, is

The data is what makes them so good at keeping you on their platform, yes. But that data isn't inherently useful to the CCP. I think what GP is getting at, is that TikTok could easily start showing 80 million Americans whatever political agenda they deem appropriate. 1 week before an American election? 80 million Americans start being bombarded with "Why you should vote how the CCP wants you to vote" videos. That is a national security threat. Edit: Changed "20% of Americans" to "80 million Americans"

MiguelX413 4y ago
This sounds just like online advertising to me.
- adampk 4y ago
  The changes in algorithms directed by the CCP can be tracked like purchases of online ads through facebook/twitter? What kind of nonsense comparison is this good lord.
  - MiguelX413 4y ago
    My comparison is not at all similar to the way you are describing it. I'm comparing "TikTok could easily start showing 80 million Americans whatever political agenda they deem appropriate." to the advertising control and capabilities of FAMANG etc. YouTube ALREADY does on their homepage what TikTok COULD do.
  - cma 4y ago
    I think he means like this: "Facebook says it can sway elections after all—for a price" https://qz.com/922436/facebook-says-it-can-sway-elections-after-all-for-a-price/ https://qz.com/922436/facebook-says-it-can-sway-elections-af...
    - MiguelX413 4y ago
      You put it better than I could have, thank you.
tablespoon 4y ago
> 1 week before an American election? 80 million Americans start being bombarded with "Why you should vote how the CCP wants you to vote" videos. That is a national security threat. Of course, it wouldn't be that dumb and obvious. If they were smart, they'd pick compelling organic content that aligns with their agenda, and amplify that for susceptible audiences (e.g. if they want to hurt Biden, they might take best videos criticizing him for allowing more oil drilling, and then un-organically push that content to users with environmentalist leanings).
- lamontcg 4y ago
  Okay lets make sure China can't do this through tiktok. Then lets make sure that domestic political groups can't do this through facebook, instagram and reddit.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > Okay lets make sure China can't do this through tiktok. > Then lets make sure that domestic political groups can't do this through facebook, instagram and reddit. Except that in one case, it's a foreign actor interfering with the domestic political process, and in the other it's a domestic actor arguably exercising their first amendment rights.
    - guelo 4y ago
      Rupert Murdoch got around this kind of distinction by getting an American citizenship.
    - Schroedingersat 4y ago
      Money isn't speech. International corporations aren't domestic. Corporations aren't people. Boosting propoganda, censoring, and surveilling whilst acting as a utility and forcing people to sign up to participate in society is neither free nor speech. Meta and google don't just abuse americans
    - lamontcg 4y ago
      There's no useful distinction there. They are manipulating the population and arguably infringing on rights that all free individuals should have (had the bill of rights not been written before mass media and the internet).
godelski 4y ago
> But that data isn't inherently useful to the CCP. I think what GP is getting at > is that TikTok could easily start showing 80 million Americans whatever political agenda they deem appropriate. How does TikTok determine which political agenda is appropriate? Maybe there is a misconception to this? Foreign adversaries, such as Russia and CCP (or whoever your respective adversary is), are not so much trying to get people to vote/act a specific way as much as they are trying to 1) create chaos and 2) increase distrust in a population's trust in their government (note, this is not US centric). (some propaganda campaigns can be to get specific reactions, but chaos is much easier to create than specific actions) If we look at Russian influence campaigns we actually see that in several cases they organized both a protest to something and a corresponding counter protest. The thing is that if you can create chaos in your adversaries' political environment then they are not effectively able to organize and pursue collective advancements. This is exacerbated by creating distrust in one's leadership. That creates more chaos and again lessens the ability to collectively organize. It is also important to recognize that effective propaganda doesn't create issues out of thin air. Instead you are placing your thumb on the scale. Creating mountains out of mole hills is a long tested and successful form of propaganda. After all, the devil tells half truths. (see misinformation vs disinformation vs malinformation. Propaganda often uses malinformation)

MiguelX413 4y ago

This sounds just like online advertising to me.

adampk 4y ago
The changes in algorithms directed by the CCP can be tracked like purchases of online ads through facebook/twitter? What kind of nonsense comparison is this good lord.
- MiguelX413 4y ago
  My comparison is not at all similar to the way you are describing it. I'm comparing "TikTok could easily start showing 80 million Americans whatever political agenda they deem appropriate." to the advertising control and capabilities of FAMANG etc. YouTube ALREADY does on their homepage what TikTok COULD do.
- cma 4y ago
  I think he means like this: "Facebook says it can sway elections after all—for a price" https://qz.com/922436/facebook-says-it-can-sway-elections-after-all-for-a-price/ https://qz.com/922436/facebook-says-it-can-sway-elections-af...
  - MiguelX413 4y ago
    You put it better than I could have, thank you.

tablespoon 4y ago

> 1 week before an American election? 80 million Americans start being bombarded with "Why you should vote how the CCP wants you to vote" videos. That is a national security threat. Of course, it wouldn't be that dumb and obvious. If they were smart, they'd pick compelling organic content that aligns with their agenda, and amplify that for susceptible audiences (e.g. if they want to hurt Biden, they might take best videos criticizing him for allowing more oil drilling, and then un-organically push that content to users with environmentalist leanings).

lamontcg 4y ago
Okay lets make sure China can't do this through tiktok. Then lets make sure that domestic political groups can't do this through facebook, instagram and reddit.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > Okay lets make sure China can't do this through tiktok. > Then lets make sure that domestic political groups can't do this through facebook, instagram and reddit. Except that in one case, it's a foreign actor interfering with the domestic political process, and in the other it's a domestic actor arguably exercising their first amendment rights.
  - guelo 4y ago
    Rupert Murdoch got around this kind of distinction by getting an American citizenship.
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago
    Money isn't speech. International corporations aren't domestic. Corporations aren't people. Boosting propoganda, censoring, and surveilling whilst acting as a utility and forcing people to sign up to participate in society is neither free nor speech. Meta and google don't just abuse americans
  - lamontcg 4y ago
    There's no useful distinction there. They are manipulating the population and arguably infringing on rights that all free individuals should have (had the bill of rights not been written before mass media and the internet).

godelski 4y ago

> But that data isn't inherently useful to the CCP. I think what GP is getting at > is that TikTok could easily start showing 80 million Americans whatever political agenda they deem appropriate. How does TikTok determine which political agenda is appropriate? Maybe there is a misconception to this? Foreign adversaries, such as Russia and CCP (or whoever your respective adversary is), are not so much trying to get people to vote/act a specific way as much as they are trying to 1) create chaos and 2) increase distrust in a population's trust in their government (note, this is not US centric). (some propaganda campaigns can be to get specific reactions, but chaos is much easier to create than specific actions) If we look at Russian influence campaigns we actually see that in several cases they organized both a protest to something and a corresponding counter protest. The thing is that if you can create chaos in your adversaries' political environment then they are not effectively able to organize and pursue collective advancements. This is exacerbated by creating distrust in one's leadership. That creates more chaos and again lessens the ability to collectively organize. It is also important to recognize that effective propaganda doesn't create issues out of thin air. Instead you are placing your thumb on the scale. Creating mountains out of mole hills is a long tested and successful form of propaganda. After all, the devil tells half truths. (see misinformation vs disinformation vs malinformation. Propaganda often uses malinformation)