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I don't really understand why not doing it to US citizens makes it ok. I can imagine one would find it permissible to use such techniques against your enemies,

by Lutger 4y ago

I don't really understand why not doing it to US citizens makes it ok. I can imagine one would find it permissible to use such techniques against your enemies, but this is very clearly also about your allies. To the US, American lives are all that really matter? I mean, there's also the policy that torture is ok but not against Americans and not on US territory, hence the secret CIA torture spaces during the Gulf War and guantonomo bay (simplifying a bit here). Isn't that obviously wrong? How can one maintain that their country is the greatest with such dubious ethics? I mean specifically using the argument 'doing objectionable things only to non US citizens' as part of the case for America's greatness seems...odd at best. I feel like I'm missing something here. A cultural gap maybe. Or is American superiority deemed so self evident that it legitimates itself in a circular justification? I don't want to sound combative, though I probably do, but really I want to understand how this works for Americans.

Implicated 4y ago
We (Americans) don’t all feel this way. Personally, I feel the same way you do when I read things like this. I’m puzzled how it’s ok for anyone that wasn’t assigned an American citizenship in the birth lottery.
neilv 4y ago
I think different Americans have different awareness and thinking about those questions. I'd started to address that in my message, then awkwardly edited it out (see last sentence) before posting. It's easy to persuade that we should be honorable towards ourselves. Outside of ourselves are much more complicated and contentious geopolitical questions, I don't know the answers, and I thought negative reactions to raising that would defeat the smaller point.
zmgsabst 4y ago
> How can one maintain that their country is the greatest with such dubious ethics? Compared to who? > I mean specifically using the argument 'doing objectionable things only to non US citizens' as part of the case for America's greatness seems...odd at best. That is a rule of law (for their citizens) better than much of the world.
flerchin 4y ago
As a democracy we don't want our institutions to be shaping the opinions which are used to elect them. Shaping the opinions of foreigners has no such compunction.
- LudwigNagasena 4y ago
  Who are “we”? Government technocrats and many Americans on HN think that it’s absolutely fine that their government mistrusts stupid voters and tells them half-truths: “masks don’t work” and all that.
CSMastermind 4y ago
> I don't really understand why not doing it to US citizens makes it ok. I can imagine one would find it permissible to use such techniques against your enemies, but this is very clearly also about your allies. Because of conflict of interest. When you're persuading people outside of the US of something you're presumably doing it in (at least nominally) the US' best interest because as a citizen of the US your personal interests are also aligned with those of the nation (at least at the scale these operations work at). Turned internally there's all sorts of messy conflicts like political parties using the tools to gain power, agencies using the tools to gain funding, etc.

by Lutger 4y ago

Implicated 4y ago

We (Americans) don’t all feel this way. Personally, I feel the same way you do when I read things like this. I’m puzzled how it’s ok for anyone that wasn’t assigned an American citizenship in the birth lottery.

neilv 4y ago

I think different Americans have different awareness and thinking about those questions. I'd started to address that in my message, then awkwardly edited it out (see last sentence) before posting. It's easy to persuade that we should be honorable towards ourselves. Outside of ourselves are much more complicated and contentious geopolitical questions, I don't know the answers, and I thought negative reactions to raising that would defeat the smaller point.

zmgsabst 4y ago

> How can one maintain that their country is the greatest with such dubious ethics? Compared to who? > I mean specifically using the argument 'doing objectionable things only to non US citizens' as part of the case for America's greatness seems...odd at best. That is a rule of law (for their citizens) better than much of the world.

flerchin 4y ago

As a democracy we don't want our institutions to be shaping the opinions which are used to elect them. Shaping the opinions of foreigners has no such compunction.

LudwigNagasena 4y ago
Who are “we”? Government technocrats and many Americans on HN think that it’s absolutely fine that their government mistrusts stupid voters and tells them half-truths: “masks don’t work” and all that.

CSMastermind 4y ago

> I don't really understand why not doing it to US citizens makes it ok. I can imagine one would find it permissible to use such techniques against your enemies, but this is very clearly also about your allies. Because of conflict of interest. When you're persuading people outside of the US of something you're presumably doing it in (at least nominally) the US' best interest because as a citizen of the US your personal interests are also aligned with those of the nation (at least at the scale these operations work at). Turned internally there's all sorts of messy conflicts like political parties using the tools to gain power, agencies using the tools to gain funding, etc.