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China has 4x the population of the US. Abandoning zero COVID as a policy would lead to millions of deaths. How can you call SinoVax a failure when all of the no

by drekk 4y ago

China has 4x the population of the US. Abandoning zero COVID as a policy would lead to millions of deaths. How can you call SinoVax a failure when all of the non-mRNA vaccines perform similarly? The US has more COVID deaths than China has had cases. That's shameful, especially when the US sat on enough mRNA vaccines to completely immunize our population 9x over. Countries like Argentina that were guinea pigs for the Pfizer, Moderna, J&J vaccines couldn't get enough access because IP law is more important than stopping a global pandemic that disrupts manufacturing. Countries like China and Cuba had to manufacture their own vaccines without the new mRNA process and it was less effective as a result but still better than nothing. Cuba even had to get permission from the US to import syringes to be able to administer the vaccine they manufactured. How is that defensible? All of this without even saying that the CPC has an incredibly high approval rating (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur...), even when the polling is done by outside entities and anonymized. It seems incredibly condescending to treat a billion+ humans as inept drones under the iron grip of a tyrant simply because they're geopolitical rivals.

TurkishPoptart 4y ago
Firstly, the mRNA "vaccines" do not produce any sort of immunity. AFAIK the Chinese vaccines actually work like traditional vaccines (i.e. cowpox particles to produce smallpox immunity). We really don't know the Covid death rate in China, whether there are excess deaths from Covid infection directly or as a result of the CCP's cruel and barbaric lockdown measures, which have caused reports of starvation in places like Shanghai. I also would not extrapolate public opinion about the CCP based on polling, even if it's done by outside entities and anonymized. Any Chinese with an IQ higher than room temperature would know better than to speak out against the CCP in a western-designed poll. Xi Jinping is leading his country like Stalin...they have GULAGs for dissenters. So, I don't disagree with you. I just think culturally, the Chinese are rightly reticent to express any antigovernmental sentiment, for good reason. Let's remember that the Chinese people have been occupied and oppressed by the Chinese Communist Party since the Chinese civil war. I pray for their liberation.
prottog 4y ago
> a billion+ humans as inept drones under the iron grip of a tyrant Drones, no, but it's very instructive to look at what the elites of China do. Many who achieve success in China spend significant resources to have a foot out the door, because they know that success is fleeting, depending on remaining in favor of the CCP. Even Xi Jinping's daughter went to school in the US. If the CCP is actually so benign and China is well run and a good place to be, why does that happen?
- hakfoo 4y ago
  Optimization goals? They could be targeting economic policy around the, say, 1.3 billion or so non-elites. A few million at the top may see a net burden in "we have to be responsive to overall planning goals" and "we might have less raw economic opportunity", but maybe it's a choice the CCP is willing to make. At least on an aggregate, society-wide level, the quality-of-life metrics do seem to be pointing in the right direction. I don't think "schooling in the US" is inherently a culpable thing. Premier American universities are globally very highly respected, and I could see value in "cross training" to make sure they're not missing any good ideas worth investigating.
JPKab 4y ago
"The US has more COVID deaths than China has had cases." You really believe that? In that case I'm sure you also believe that no Uyghurs have been harmed as well. 91 percent of Chinese people have absolutely no say in their government based on statistics of membership in the CCP. Nobody is saying they are inept drones but they certainly get disappeared if they protest their government.

by drekk 4y ago

TurkishPoptart 4y ago

Firstly, the mRNA "vaccines" do not produce any sort of immunity. AFAIK the Chinese vaccines actually work like traditional vaccines (i.e. cowpox particles to produce smallpox immunity). We really don't know the Covid death rate in China, whether there are excess deaths from Covid infection directly or as a result of the CCP's cruel and barbaric lockdown measures, which have caused reports of starvation in places like Shanghai. I also would not extrapolate public opinion about the CCP based on polling, even if it's done by outside entities and anonymized. Any Chinese with an IQ higher than room temperature would know better than to speak out against the CCP in a western-designed poll. Xi Jinping is leading his country like Stalin...they have GULAGs for dissenters. So, I don't disagree with you. I just think culturally, the Chinese are rightly reticent to express any antigovernmental sentiment, for good reason. Let's remember that the Chinese people have been occupied and oppressed by the Chinese Communist Party since the Chinese civil war. I pray for their liberation.

prottog 4y ago

> a billion+ humans as inept drones under the iron grip of a tyrant Drones, no, but it's very instructive to look at what the elites of China do. Many who achieve success in China spend significant resources to have a foot out the door, because they know that success is fleeting, depending on remaining in favor of the CCP. Even Xi Jinping's daughter went to school in the US. If the CCP is actually so benign and China is well run and a good place to be, why does that happen?

hakfoo 4y ago
Optimization goals? They could be targeting economic policy around the, say, 1.3 billion or so non-elites. A few million at the top may see a net burden in "we have to be responsive to overall planning goals" and "we might have less raw economic opportunity", but maybe it's a choice the CCP is willing to make. At least on an aggregate, society-wide level, the quality-of-life metrics do seem to be pointing in the right direction. I don't think "schooling in the US" is inherently a culpable thing. Premier American universities are globally very highly respected, and I could see value in "cross training" to make sure they're not missing any good ideas worth investigating.

JPKab 4y ago

"The US has more COVID deaths than China has had cases." You really believe that? In that case I'm sure you also believe that no Uyghurs have been harmed as well. 91 percent of Chinese people have absolutely no say in their government based on statistics of membership in the CCP. Nobody is saying they are inept drones but they certainly get disappeared if they protest their government.