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I grew up as a Mormon and became disillusioned with that as I got older and got exposed to Eastern religions. Over time, I also became disillusioned with Easter

I grew up as a Mormon and became disillusioned with that as I got older and got exposed to Eastern religions. Over time, I also became disillusioned with Eastern religions because they are ultimately nihilistic. I found Eastern Orthodoxy, which is the perfect marriage between Christianity and mysticism. My whole life has been healed as a result of becoming (and continuing to struggle to be) an Orthodox Christian. My life was a mess and my family was almost beyond hope. I was quickly falling towards divorce and despair. I heard about Orthodox Christianity through a few different avenues around the same time and I thought "what else do I have to lose?" I have not regretted the decision to go to church.

fellowniusmonk 4y ago
It's interesting, I had a similar experience (except I started as a non-conforming protestant) but actually bypassed eastern thought (I had already looked into it when I was younger and came to the joking conclusion it was atheism with more steps) and eastern orthodox (knew tons of people who grew up evangelical and got into eastern orthodox in college.) I just dove into the meaninglessness and realized if you really give into it you come out the other side. The flip side of existential despair is existential hope, if you stop "knowing" things "matter" (but suspecting they don't) and instead "know" that "nothing matters" (and suspecting it might) existentialism stops being despair and becomes existential hope. "What if everything does matter!" it requires really embracing the despair combined with a curious disposition / intellectual humility. Thought I'd share, food for thought, I've really enjoyed it but haven't met too many people raised theistic who can really stop fighting despair long enough to come out the other side, people raised atheist in the first place seem to get there much faster or just start there.
- prometheus76 4y ago
  If everything matters, then every decision and every moment has weight and also matters. The "existential hope" you are talking about sounds just like "do what thou wilt" or the new, more modern adaptation of that phrase "do what you want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else". That first phrase is an Anton Lavey quote (a satanist) and the second is a nonsensical libertarian version of the same premise. "Do what thou wilt" is still nihilism. That viewpoint completely ignores that we are part of a community and that our actions affect those around us. It's also a poor foundation for trying to understand the world because it is still a relativistic worldview, which I have found to be very disastrous for individuals and for societies as a whole. There's a book called Nihilism by Seraphim Rose that does a much better job of laying out and explaining the problems with nihilism (whether the "despairing" version or the "hopeful" or "liberal" version).
  - physicles 4y ago
    I noticed in your original post that you didn’t address the objective truth of Christianity, only that it has helped you. What does one do if one simply cannot believe in the supernatural because of the lack of evidence? I think you’re being a bit uncharitable with the consequences of nihilism — or to be more precise, metaphysical naturalism. I haven’t met very many people, even non-religious people, who truly believe that they can just do whatever the hell they want because nothing matters. If I met people like that, I’d cut them out of my life. Even if you don’t have an intrinsic motivation to do good, you just can’t escape the fact that if you’re an asshole and not a sociopath, your life will probably suck. The truth is that it’s possible to be a well-adjusted, loving human being while also believing that life is objectively meaningless. (Though ironically, in my anecdotal experience finding happiness as a metaphysical naturalist is harder if you grew up with religion and then left it, like myself). Today we can draw from stoicism, optimistic nihilism, secular humanism and others to help us along the way. All this said, I do not know whether a worldview divorced from objective meaning is better for building a healthy society. I suspect it’s more difficult without religion, which is one of the reasons religion is so widespread.
    - prometheus76 4y ago
      You've asked some very big questions that would require some unpacking to even start to answer, because there are a lot of assumptions and presuppositions and hidden definitions just in the first question of wondering about evidence with regard to supernatural things. This might feel like a cop-out on my part (and it probably is, because I am at work), but the best response I can give to you is that if you really want to try to understand the issues you raise from a Christian perspective, "Miracles" by C.S. Lewis is probably the most succinct way I could answer your questions. He takes on the problems with nihilism and naturalism in a straightforward, but thorough manner. I didn't read it until far into my journey back to Christianity, but he addresses the issue better than anyone else I've read. I will leave you with one little thing that always goes around in my head when I'm talking with a nihilist or naturalist, however. "There is no absolute truth" is an absolute-truth claim, which means the whole foundation of that world view is based on a self-contradiction. That might not bother you, but it started bothering me when it was pointed out.
- vitorbaptistaa 4y ago
  Your comment reminded me of the Optimistic Nihilism video by Kurzegesagt [1]. I highly recommend it, as they explain these concepts very well in a short 6min video. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBRqu0YOH14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBRqu0YOH14
  - fellowniusmonk 4y ago
    I appreciate that video but after watching it I'm definitely not an optimistic nihilist as described in the video, I think while the video does caveat a lot of it's statements and I do overall agree with its sentiment it's too definitive and confident in certain areas. "Existential hope" is definitely my position, no confidence, certainty or belief in nihilism required, just inject even more uncertainty and the nihilism goes away as well. It means that in contrast to the video summing up its point by saying "do what you want and bonus points for helping others", I say that discovering and investigating and progressing is actually an imperative task. I think the divide may be that I neither presume or reject as default materialism as the final truth, the video doesn't explicitly either but it does frame things in a way that I never would and it's conclusions for a meaningful life are also a narrower subset of my position in some areas and broader in others. My possibly false impression based on the video is that optimistic nihilism takes for granted that materialism is a starting assumption. I think while materialism is our current empirical observation I don't know if that will hold up long term as the underlying nature of reality. Existential hope works equally well for those who lean or suspect that this underlying nature is deist, theist, atheist, materialist, metaphysical or dualist.
markus_zhang 4y ago
Thanks for sharing your experience . I'm not a religious person (although I do enjoy reading Apocalypses) but I hope the peace you found retain forever.
- prometheus76 4y ago
  I wasn't either, but it's the answer to staring meaninglessness in the face in your mid-life.
  - flakyfilibuster 4y ago
    what's so bad about meaninglessness?
    - prometheus76 4y ago
      I have found that meaninglessness leads to deep anxiety and confusion. I'll use family relationships as an example. If you do what you want and assign your own meaning to your actions and choices, those around you will probably not see the same meaning in your actions. To be more specific, if you think "I can flirt with this woman at work. It's fine. It's harmless." Things can quickly escalate and either your spouse will soon feel abandoned, or you will lose your job or worse, you will develop a relationship with someone besides your spouse and live a compartmentalized life. This, eventually, will come to an end and many lives will be torn up as a result of you saying "I can do what I want." "I can do what I want and make it mean whatever I want" is a very selfish delusion that completely ignores that your actions affect those around you (who are also assigning meaning to your actions and words) and that those around you affect you as well. Another danger to this is the delusion that you always know what is best for you. Many times in my life, I have gotten advice from someone who was watching me and who told me I was being reckless or foolish, and that I should think about what I was doing carefully and choose another path. I could have easily dismissed them (and often did), but sometimes those outside of our head can see what we are doing or where we are heading more clearly than we can with all of our justifications. In short, meaninglessness means that at any time you and anyone around you can decide that marriage doesn't mean commitment anymore. You can decide that your spouse cheating on you is a good thing. You can look forward to feeling betrayed. And hopefully your children will just be able to change their minds about how their parents feel about each other. And hopefully they don't change their minds about how they feel about you. It's all fine because you can just make it mean whatever you want!
jmfldn 4y ago
I’m glad you found peace, and I am quite intrigued by Orthodox Christianity myself, but your characterisation of “eastern” religions as nihilistic is problematic for two reasons. First, “eastern”. That encompasses a vast array of cultures and traditions so it’s a bit of a meaningless label. Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Jain, Sikh (etc) and the deep diversity within all of them. Are they all the same? Some are theistic, others pantheistic or more complex still. Non-theistic? Very different is my point and within all of these there is a a deep wealth of expressions and diversity. Secondly, nihilistic. This means, “rejecting all religious and moral principles in the belief that life is meaningless”. Even if you take Buddhism, a religion where god is not really part of it, and thus most open to this misunderstanding, do Buddhists eschew moral principles and say life is meaningless? Not at all. Buddhism is deeply moral at its core and has a deep vision of the good, true and transcendent.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  I'm not an expert, but I think that Hinduism is morally nihilistic, if you go far enough. Cruelty is just as much a part of what is as non-cruelty. Kali is as much a manifestation of the divine as Vishnu is. And so you get to the point where you cannot say that cruelty is wrong compared to non-cruelty.
  - rramadass 4y ago
    It is not that simple, there is a lot of nuance here. I suggest a study of Samkhya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya) whose Worldview is the basis that has most influenced the worldviews of the other systems within Hinduism. Kali/Vishnu/other popular Hindu gods are later conceptualizations meant for Popular culture. The Intellectual culture behind it is quite different. Samkhya defines the Purusha (consciousness) enjoying Prakrithi (everything else) through the interplay of three Gunas (characteristics). The imposition of a Worldview on a Social Structure is what defines Morality/Ethics/Values. Here is where "Ahimsa" i.e. "non-violence"(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa) comes into play. You don't condone "cruelty" but are fully aware of its existence (in the interplay of the gunas) and take measures to control it. Kali is one of those concepts who destroys evil by any means but herself is not evil. The idea is similar to Wrathful Deities (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrathful_deities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrathful_deities) from Tantric Buddhism.
50 4y ago
I love the Philokalia.
- prometheus76 4y ago
  It is a deep well with no bottom.
  - 50 4y ago
    You might be interested in Thomas Merton's The Wisdom of the Desert[1], and this neat blog[2] I follow pertaining to Eastern Orthodoxy. 1. https://www.ndbooks.com/book/the-wisdom-of-the-desert/ https://www.ndbooks.com/book/the-wisdom-of-the-desert/ 2. https://cassianus.tumblr.com/ https://cassianus.tumblr.com/
alexseman 4y ago
afpx 4y ago
A few years ago, I read The New Testament - a translation by David Bentley Hart (an Orthodox scholar). It’s more of an academic literal translation. I read it mainly just to educate myself. I was raised in a strict “no religion” family, and I’d already explored Zen and Buddhism. So, I figured, why not educate myself in this religion that surrounds me and affects me so directly. Well, a lot of it is what you’d expect, unfortunately. But, if you get rid of 90% of it, and focus strictly on Jesus’s Laws, I believe he represents fundamental truths. “Love God above all else, all the time” - I find this to mean live in the present, love each moment, put love into each motion and effort. Love yourself. And, “Love others as you love yourself” - The covenants that you make with others, the promises that you keep are the purpose of life. Treat others with compassion. Be yourself. Relish in your unique existence. It’s really unfortunate that Jesus was eclipsed by Paul, Timothy, others. Well, I never actually got to “belief in a higher power” (I really wanted to experience that Human concept). But, I did become a believer in Jesus’s Laws, and I still try to practice them.

fellowniusmonk 4y ago

It's interesting, I had a similar experience (except I started as a non-conforming protestant) but actually bypassed eastern thought (I had already looked into it when I was younger and came to the joking conclusion it was atheism with more steps) and eastern orthodox (knew tons of people who grew up evangelical and got into eastern orthodox in college.) I just dove into the meaninglessness and realized if you really give into it you come out the other side. The flip side of existential despair is existential hope, if you stop "knowing" things "matter" (but suspecting they don't) and instead "know" that "nothing matters" (and suspecting it might) existentialism stops being despair and becomes existential hope. "What if everything does matter!" it requires really embracing the despair combined with a curious disposition / intellectual humility. Thought I'd share, food for thought, I've really enjoyed it but haven't met too many people raised theistic who can really stop fighting despair long enough to come out the other side, people raised atheist in the first place seem to get there much faster or just start there.

prometheus76 4y ago
If everything matters, then every decision and every moment has weight and also matters. The "existential hope" you are talking about sounds just like "do what thou wilt" or the new, more modern adaptation of that phrase "do what you want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else". That first phrase is an Anton Lavey quote (a satanist) and the second is a nonsensical libertarian version of the same premise. "Do what thou wilt" is still nihilism. That viewpoint completely ignores that we are part of a community and that our actions affect those around us. It's also a poor foundation for trying to understand the world because it is still a relativistic worldview, which I have found to be very disastrous for individuals and for societies as a whole. There's a book called Nihilism by Seraphim Rose that does a much better job of laying out and explaining the problems with nihilism (whether the "despairing" version or the "hopeful" or "liberal" version).
- physicles 4y ago
  I noticed in your original post that you didn’t address the objective truth of Christianity, only that it has helped you. What does one do if one simply cannot believe in the supernatural because of the lack of evidence? I think you’re being a bit uncharitable with the consequences of nihilism — or to be more precise, metaphysical naturalism. I haven’t met very many people, even non-religious people, who truly believe that they can just do whatever the hell they want because nothing matters. If I met people like that, I’d cut them out of my life. Even if you don’t have an intrinsic motivation to do good, you just can’t escape the fact that if you’re an asshole and not a sociopath, your life will probably suck. The truth is that it’s possible to be a well-adjusted, loving human being while also believing that life is objectively meaningless. (Though ironically, in my anecdotal experience finding happiness as a metaphysical naturalist is harder if you grew up with religion and then left it, like myself). Today we can draw from stoicism, optimistic nihilism, secular humanism and others to help us along the way. All this said, I do not know whether a worldview divorced from objective meaning is better for building a healthy society. I suspect it’s more difficult without religion, which is one of the reasons religion is so widespread.
  - prometheus76 4y ago
    You've asked some very big questions that would require some unpacking to even start to answer, because there are a lot of assumptions and presuppositions and hidden definitions just in the first question of wondering about evidence with regard to supernatural things. This might feel like a cop-out on my part (and it probably is, because I am at work), but the best response I can give to you is that if you really want to try to understand the issues you raise from a Christian perspective, "Miracles" by C.S. Lewis is probably the most succinct way I could answer your questions. He takes on the problems with nihilism and naturalism in a straightforward, but thorough manner. I didn't read it until far into my journey back to Christianity, but he addresses the issue better than anyone else I've read. I will leave you with one little thing that always goes around in my head when I'm talking with a nihilist or naturalist, however. "There is no absolute truth" is an absolute-truth claim, which means the whole foundation of that world view is based on a self-contradiction. That might not bother you, but it started bothering me when it was pointed out.
vitorbaptistaa 4y ago
Your comment reminded me of the Optimistic Nihilism video by Kurzegesagt [1]. I highly recommend it, as they explain these concepts very well in a short 6min video. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBRqu0YOH14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBRqu0YOH14
- fellowniusmonk 4y ago
  I appreciate that video but after watching it I'm definitely not an optimistic nihilist as described in the video, I think while the video does caveat a lot of it's statements and I do overall agree with its sentiment it's too definitive and confident in certain areas. "Existential hope" is definitely my position, no confidence, certainty or belief in nihilism required, just inject even more uncertainty and the nihilism goes away as well. It means that in contrast to the video summing up its point by saying "do what you want and bonus points for helping others", I say that discovering and investigating and progressing is actually an imperative task. I think the divide may be that I neither presume or reject as default materialism as the final truth, the video doesn't explicitly either but it does frame things in a way that I never would and it's conclusions for a meaningful life are also a narrower subset of my position in some areas and broader in others. My possibly false impression based on the video is that optimistic nihilism takes for granted that materialism is a starting assumption. I think while materialism is our current empirical observation I don't know if that will hold up long term as the underlying nature of reality. Existential hope works equally well for those who lean or suspect that this underlying nature is deist, theist, atheist, materialist, metaphysical or dualist.

markus_zhang 4y ago

Thanks for sharing your experience . I'm not a religious person (although I do enjoy reading Apocalypses) but I hope the peace you found retain forever.

prometheus76 4y ago
I wasn't either, but it's the answer to staring meaninglessness in the face in your mid-life.
- flakyfilibuster 4y ago
  what's so bad about meaninglessness?
  - prometheus76 4y ago
    I have found that meaninglessness leads to deep anxiety and confusion. I'll use family relationships as an example. If you do what you want and assign your own meaning to your actions and choices, those around you will probably not see the same meaning in your actions. To be more specific, if you think "I can flirt with this woman at work. It's fine. It's harmless." Things can quickly escalate and either your spouse will soon feel abandoned, or you will lose your job or worse, you will develop a relationship with someone besides your spouse and live a compartmentalized life. This, eventually, will come to an end and many lives will be torn up as a result of you saying "I can do what I want." "I can do what I want and make it mean whatever I want" is a very selfish delusion that completely ignores that your actions affect those around you (who are also assigning meaning to your actions and words) and that those around you affect you as well. Another danger to this is the delusion that you always know what is best for you. Many times in my life, I have gotten advice from someone who was watching me and who told me I was being reckless or foolish, and that I should think about what I was doing carefully and choose another path. I could have easily dismissed them (and often did), but sometimes those outside of our head can see what we are doing or where we are heading more clearly than we can with all of our justifications. In short, meaninglessness means that at any time you and anyone around you can decide that marriage doesn't mean commitment anymore. You can decide that your spouse cheating on you is a good thing. You can look forward to feeling betrayed. And hopefully your children will just be able to change their minds about how their parents feel about each other. And hopefully they don't change their minds about how they feel about you. It's all fine because you can just make it mean whatever you want!

jmfldn 4y ago

I’m glad you found peace, and I am quite intrigued by Orthodox Christianity myself, but your characterisation of “eastern” religions as nihilistic is problematic for two reasons. First, “eastern”. That encompasses a vast array of cultures and traditions so it’s a bit of a meaningless label. Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Jain, Sikh (etc) and the deep diversity within all of them. Are they all the same? Some are theistic, others pantheistic or more complex still. Non-theistic? Very different is my point and within all of these there is a a deep wealth of expressions and diversity. Secondly, nihilistic. This means, “rejecting all religious and moral principles in the belief that life is meaningless”. Even if you take Buddhism, a religion where god is not really part of it, and thus most open to this misunderstanding, do Buddhists eschew moral principles and say life is meaningless? Not at all. Buddhism is deeply moral at its core and has a deep vision of the good, true and transcendent.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
I'm not an expert, but I think that Hinduism is morally nihilistic, if you go far enough. Cruelty is just as much a part of what is as non-cruelty. Kali is as much a manifestation of the divine as Vishnu is. And so you get to the point where you cannot say that cruelty is wrong compared to non-cruelty.
- rramadass 4y ago
  It is not that simple, there is a lot of nuance here. I suggest a study of Samkhya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya) whose Worldview is the basis that has most influenced the worldviews of the other systems within Hinduism. Kali/Vishnu/other popular Hindu gods are later conceptualizations meant for Popular culture. The Intellectual culture behind it is quite different. Samkhya defines the Purusha (consciousness) enjoying Prakrithi (everything else) through the interplay of three Gunas (characteristics). The imposition of a Worldview on a Social Structure is what defines Morality/Ethics/Values. Here is where "Ahimsa" i.e. "non-violence"(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa) comes into play. You don't condone "cruelty" but are fully aware of its existence (in the interplay of the gunas) and take measures to control it. Kali is one of those concepts who destroys evil by any means but herself is not evil. The idea is similar to Wrathful Deities (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrathful_deities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrathful_deities) from Tantric Buddhism.

50 4y ago

I love the Philokalia.

prometheus76 4y ago
It is a deep well with no bottom.
- 50 4y ago
  You might be interested in Thomas Merton's The Wisdom of the Desert[1], and this neat blog[2] I follow pertaining to Eastern Orthodoxy. 1. https://www.ndbooks.com/book/the-wisdom-of-the-desert/ https://www.ndbooks.com/book/the-wisdom-of-the-desert/ 2. https://cassianus.tumblr.com/ https://cassianus.tumblr.com/

alexseman 4y ago

afpx 4y ago

A few years ago, I read The New Testament - a translation by David Bentley Hart (an Orthodox scholar). It’s more of an academic literal translation. I read it mainly just to educate myself. I was raised in a strict “no religion” family, and I’d already explored Zen and Buddhism. So, I figured, why not educate myself in this religion that surrounds me and affects me so directly. Well, a lot of it is what you’d expect, unfortunately. But, if you get rid of 90% of it, and focus strictly on Jesus’s Laws, I believe he represents fundamental truths. “Love God above all else, all the time” - I find this to mean live in the present, love each moment, put love into each motion and effort. Love yourself. And, “Love others as you love yourself” - The covenants that you make with others, the promises that you keep are the purpose of life. Treat others with compassion. Be yourself. Relish in your unique existence. It’s really unfortunate that Jesus was eclipsed by Paul, Timothy, others. Well, I never actually got to “belief in a higher power” (I really wanted to experience that Human concept). But, I did become a believer in Jesus’s Laws, and I still try to practice them.