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If you paid your loans off, you don't lose anything by someone else getting $10,000. That is, indeed, incontrovertible. Imagine I have an apple and you have an

If you paid your loans off, you don't lose anything by someone else getting $10,000. That is, indeed, incontrovertible. Imagine I have an apple and you have an apple. If I get another apple, that doesn't mean you now have zero.

ctoth 4y ago
Here's a toy model without interest to make this easier for you to grok: T0: We both have $0. T1: We both borrow $10,000 and have -$10000 T2-T11: We both make $2,000, of which I pay back $1,000, you pay back $0 per time period t11: The government pays off your $10,000 loan At T11 I will have $10,000, and you will have $20,000.
- hashmap 4y ago
  The government pays off my $10,000 and your situation is literally no different. I'm not sure how you're not getting this. If you were locked in a room and had no idea the government gave me that money you would have no idea and remain unaffected. This is what I mean by bucket-crab mentality. The inability to discern someone else doing better from you doing worse.
  - maerF0x0 4y ago
    > and had no idea the government gave me that money you would have no idea and remain unaffected. Except we do have an idea not just from the news/knowledge, but also from the fact that taxes fund this scenario. One gets their tax money (plus some) back. Another pays taxes, but gets none back.
    - hashmap 4y ago
      > Except we do have an idea not just from the news/knowledge This is the crux of it. You're not actually penalized, it just makes you upset. You can choose to not be upset. I'm happy that people who most need help are getting some. > But also from the fact that taxes fund this scenario. > One gets their tax money (plus some) back. Another pays taxes, but gets none back. This is false. No taxes were levied on you to fund this scenario. If you want to count the downstream effects, the deficit is drastically down under the Biden administration, so this is part of a package deal that helps you out (not that the this would raise your taxes anyway even if the deficit were to increase). Not to mention the effects of stimulus from people who would otherwise be paying money on a loan but can now spend it on other things, which will trickle up to whatever corporation you work for, so from this action alone you may actually come out ahead. But I contend that you're not interested a full accounting or the dollar amount people are receiving, because if you were, you would be much more interested in the pounds being given to interests that clearly don't need them (military, mega farms, oil) instead of the pennies given to those that do. The short of it is no taxes are levied on you for this to happen, it really is a win for everyone, and it's ok for these people to get a little bit of help that you're not getting.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - maerF0x0 4y ago
        > who most need help are getting some. This is the crux of the point. We're discussing that two people with equal _capability_ to pay, but differing conscientiousness have outcomes that are inverted from a well ordered set of incentives. We're creating (additional) precedents for rewarding irresponsibility with finances in the face of marginal choices between paying back a loan and present day consumption. (not in the choice of degree) > you would be much more interested in the pounds being given to interests that clearly don't need them (military, mega farms, oil) instead of the pennies given to those that do. I actually am interested in these, and they're just not the specific topic today. For the record I am against most (all?) forms of market distortion by the government, except when they're breaking obviously distorted economic incentives[1] (and not creating worse ones as is the case here). > of it is no taxes are levied Taxes for the most part a general bucket and as such expenditures as such are from taxes paid. Even if it's not my money it's not right for whomever paid them [1] such as tragedy of the commons
  - RhysU 4y ago
    > The government pays off my $10,000 and your situation is literally no different. No, because you spent $10K on random stuff that he/she did not. Somewhere you have $10K in goods, services, or experiences that he/she does not.
    - hashmap 4y ago
      Biden isnt hopping in a time machine to take things away from you. Nothing is being taken from you. Someone else is getting something that you are not, that's all.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        The central idea is that the person who payed off their debt will have to pay again to bail out the debtor. Governments raise money through taxation. 10k of forgiven debt is 10k more than needs to be raised in taxes. Someone payed their debt, and then will be taxed more to pay someone else's too. You might say, "but governments don't have to balance their budget", yet the US still has taxes. If money spent (and debt incurred) is irrelevant, why collect taxes at all?
      - RhysU 4y ago
        Flip your argument and turn it up to 11... Suppose everyone else on the planet is given $10B and you get nothing. Why would you be concerned? How could it be unfair? They're just being given something that you are not.
chung8123 4y ago
Where does the money come from? It is a pool of money that those who don't qualify for have paid more into and are not seeing the benefits. A dollar is a dollar. Why are we giving only college educated people that don't have enough money to pay their loans back $10,000?
- hashmap 4y ago
  Ok, so we're agreed that you're not affected at all but instead want to talk about an entirely different concern. This concern is where does the money "come from?". No money is coming from anywhere, because no money is changing hands. It is debt that is owed that is no longer owed. No money is taken from any pool of money to pay is off, it is simply removed from the books. No government program is paying for this. No taxes are levied on you. You will not see your tax bill go up as a result of this. Levying taxes is a power of congress, no the executive, so Biden could not do this even if he wanted to. Your next question is why are we helping these people who need it - we are helping them because they need it, because great countries take care of their own. You were able to pay off your loans - that's great! But many others did not fare as well, and it is in our collective interest that they not suffer so terribly for this financial burden. Less money being paid back to these programs (which have terribly high interest rates to begin with) means more money stimulating the economy. It means more money will trickle up to the corporation you work for, and you will see some measure of this benefit. I would suggest that instead of spending so much time being upset about how some people at the bottom got some help you instead redirect that energy toward the programs benefiting those who do not need the help and are absorbing resources that utterly dwarf students having to pay $10k less - the military, oil subsidies, megafarm subsidies. As long as we're punching, why not punch up instead of down? EDIT: As for "why are we only giving to these people who need it" - great question! I would welcome giving more help out. I would agree this measure doesn't go far enough. We could be doing more, and we should demand that we do!

ctoth 4y ago

Here's a toy model without interest to make this easier for you to grok: T0: We both have $0. T1: We both borrow $10,000 and have -$10000 T2-T11: We both make $2,000, of which I pay back $1,000, you pay back $0 per time period t11: The government pays off your $10,000 loan At T11 I will have $10,000, and you will have $20,000.

hashmap 4y ago
The government pays off my $10,000 and your situation is literally no different. I'm not sure how you're not getting this. If you were locked in a room and had no idea the government gave me that money you would have no idea and remain unaffected. This is what I mean by bucket-crab mentality. The inability to discern someone else doing better from you doing worse.
- maerF0x0 4y ago
  > and had no idea the government gave me that money you would have no idea and remain unaffected. Except we do have an idea not just from the news/knowledge, but also from the fact that taxes fund this scenario. One gets their tax money (plus some) back. Another pays taxes, but gets none back.
  - hashmap 4y ago
    > Except we do have an idea not just from the news/knowledge This is the crux of it. You're not actually penalized, it just makes you upset. You can choose to not be upset. I'm happy that people who most need help are getting some. > But also from the fact that taxes fund this scenario. > One gets their tax money (plus some) back. Another pays taxes, but gets none back. This is false. No taxes were levied on you to fund this scenario. If you want to count the downstream effects, the deficit is drastically down under the Biden administration, so this is part of a package deal that helps you out (not that the this would raise your taxes anyway even if the deficit were to increase). Not to mention the effects of stimulus from people who would otherwise be paying money on a loan but can now spend it on other things, which will trickle up to whatever corporation you work for, so from this action alone you may actually come out ahead. But I contend that you're not interested a full accounting or the dollar amount people are receiving, because if you were, you would be much more interested in the pounds being given to interests that clearly don't need them (military, mega farms, oil) instead of the pennies given to those that do. The short of it is no taxes are levied on you for this to happen, it really is a win for everyone, and it's ok for these people to get a little bit of help that you're not getting.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - maerF0x0 4y ago
      > who most need help are getting some. This is the crux of the point. We're discussing that two people with equal _capability_ to pay, but differing conscientiousness have outcomes that are inverted from a well ordered set of incentives. We're creating (additional) precedents for rewarding irresponsibility with finances in the face of marginal choices between paying back a loan and present day consumption. (not in the choice of degree) > you would be much more interested in the pounds being given to interests that clearly don't need them (military, mega farms, oil) instead of the pennies given to those that do. I actually am interested in these, and they're just not the specific topic today. For the record I am against most (all?) forms of market distortion by the government, except when they're breaking obviously distorted economic incentives[1] (and not creating worse ones as is the case here). > of it is no taxes are levied Taxes for the most part a general bucket and as such expenditures as such are from taxes paid. Even if it's not my money it's not right for whomever paid them [1] such as tragedy of the commons
- RhysU 4y ago
  > The government pays off my $10,000 and your situation is literally no different. No, because you spent $10K on random stuff that he/she did not. Somewhere you have $10K in goods, services, or experiences that he/she does not.
  - hashmap 4y ago
    Biden isnt hopping in a time machine to take things away from you. Nothing is being taken from you. Someone else is getting something that you are not, that's all.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      The central idea is that the person who payed off their debt will have to pay again to bail out the debtor. Governments raise money through taxation. 10k of forgiven debt is 10k more than needs to be raised in taxes. Someone payed their debt, and then will be taxed more to pay someone else's too. You might say, "but governments don't have to balance their budget", yet the US still has taxes. If money spent (and debt incurred) is irrelevant, why collect taxes at all?
    - RhysU 4y ago
      Flip your argument and turn it up to 11... Suppose everyone else on the planet is given $10B and you get nothing. Why would you be concerned? How could it be unfair? They're just being given something that you are not.

chung8123 4y ago

Where does the money come from? It is a pool of money that those who don't qualify for have paid more into and are not seeing the benefits. A dollar is a dollar. Why are we giving only college educated people that don't have enough money to pay their loans back $10,000?

hashmap 4y ago
Ok, so we're agreed that you're not affected at all but instead want to talk about an entirely different concern. This concern is where does the money "come from?". No money is coming from anywhere, because no money is changing hands. It is debt that is owed that is no longer owed. No money is taken from any pool of money to pay is off, it is simply removed from the books. No government program is paying for this. No taxes are levied on you. You will not see your tax bill go up as a result of this. Levying taxes is a power of congress, no the executive, so Biden could not do this even if he wanted to. Your next question is why are we helping these people who need it - we are helping them because they need it, because great countries take care of their own. You were able to pay off your loans - that's great! But many others did not fare as well, and it is in our collective interest that they not suffer so terribly for this financial burden. Less money being paid back to these programs (which have terribly high interest rates to begin with) means more money stimulating the economy. It means more money will trickle up to the corporation you work for, and you will see some measure of this benefit. I would suggest that instead of spending so much time being upset about how some people at the bottom got some help you instead redirect that energy toward the programs benefiting those who do not need the help and are absorbing resources that utterly dwarf students having to pay $10k less - the military, oil subsidies, megafarm subsidies. As long as we're punching, why not punch up instead of down? EDIT: As for "why are we only giving to these people who need it" - great question! I would welcome giving more help out. I would agree this measure doesn't go far enough. We could be doing more, and we should demand that we do!