4 ms·

Bobby Fischer attempted to solve the rote memorization problem by creating Fischer Random Chess: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer_random_chess https://en

• Tepix 4y ago
  Othello has gone a similar route with XOT start position games.
• jstx1 4y ago
  The history and well-studied lines add a lot to the game though, both for players and for spectators. 960 can be fun but it's not a replacement for classical chess, it's a different game altogether. To stick to the poker comparison (which the article barely makes), it's like saying that the fix for NLH bots and solvers is to switch to PLO - you haven't fixed anything, you've just decided to play a different game.
  • Cd00d 4y ago
    NLH and PLO?
    • nohuck13 4y ago
      No-Limit Hold'em and Pot-Limit Omaha
  • H8crilA 4y ago
    Yes, to a game where you can no longer memorize openings. Which fixed that thing (memorizing openings).
    • jstx1 4y ago
      > Which fixed that thing (memorizing openings). Yeah but the fix doesn't come for free, you're giving up a lot in exchange. Which is why 960 isn't a replacement for classicial, it's another chess variant that people play in addition to classical chess.
  • lalaithion 4y ago
    The solution is to generate a 960 configuration every year on January 1st, and use it throughout the year. You get to have a new configuration to study, figure out and memorize opening lines, for an entire year.
    • jstx1 4y ago
      Sounds like a way to emphasise preparation even more.
      • rollcat 4y ago
        It's more or less what StarCraft II has been doing throughout its entire existence. Every couple months (more like years these days) there's a balance patch that slightly tweaks some units' stats, like build time, cost, damage output, tags (e.g. light, armored, which makes it good/bad vs something else) etc. It doesn't have a huge impact on the casual player audience, but it's enough to stir up the metagame at GM/pro level, and ensure pros continue to devise new strategies (and counters).
      • honkdaddy 4y ago
        How so? If it’s Jan 4, what exactly would I be preparing with? The last three days of theory about the new row? If anything it sounds like a way to emphasize how to play positions you’d otherwise never possibly see in classical chess.
        • jstx1 4y ago
          What I mean is that the gap between someone who has studied the new opening vs someone who hasn't studied would be huge so players have a much stronger incentive to prepare. And with an engine the new theory comes out immediately, it's not like you're waiting for humans to develop it. Imagine a match in classical chess between a 2600-rated plyaer who has spent time preparing their classical openings and a 2800 rated player who hasn't prepared at all - the 2800 player will still have a large edge. Now imagine the same scenario for a 960 game where the lower-rated player has spent 4 days evaluating the opening with an engine and the high-rated player hasn't - in this scenario the advantage from the engine prep is much bigger. The mix of novelty + opportunity to prepare is such that from a game theory perspective the whole thing becomes prepare-or-lose if their overall chess strength is reasonably close otherwise.
• CSMastermind 4y ago
  > With 960 possible starting positions, opening line memorization is far beyond current human capacity. That won't stop the rote memorization, just dampen its impact. At the Super GM level, they have lines memorized to around 12 moves (sometimes more). If everything were to switch to Fischer Random, then maybe they'd only have lines memorized to 9 moves or something but it wouldn't preclude them from memorizing things.
  • siftrics 4y ago
    This is a bad take. Current chess lines rely on the exact position of pieces. When you shuffle the starting position, all theory that relies on exact position falls apart. Only high-level ideas carry over when a position isn't exactly the same as the one you studied. You're implying that 3 moves (12 minus 9) corresponds to ~960 less lines to memorize. Sure, that might be applicable when tacking moves on to the end of a line you already have memorized (though I would certainly argue 3 moves would result in far less than 960 new lines, maybe 20 lines max). But when you're moving these 3 new moves to the beginning instead of the end, as you must in Fischer Random, then you do see true combinatorial explosion. You'd have to study far far more to have theory developed for every starting position.
    • zone411 4y ago
      No, it's a decent take. The grandparent probably meant moves per side, so 6 fewer plies. Memorizing opening lines in Chess960 is certainly possible thanks to chess programs giving you an idea of why these moves were chosen without learning all the intricacies of the given opening position, it does give you a pretty big advantage, and the theory does not "fall apart."
      • awb 4y ago
        > Memorizing opening lines in Chess960 is certainly possible I don't think so. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer_random_chess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer_random_chess > The random setup makes gaining an advantage through the memorization of openings impracticable; players instead must rely more on their skill and creativity over the board. It's not just the 960 unique starting positions, but then each of those if given enough analysis probably has 2-4 optimal 1st moves for white, plus 3-5 optimal 1st move responses for black. That's roughly 5,760 - 19,200 optimal 1st move pairs, which is a lot to memorize to just get you to the 2nd move. At the GM level, a traditional opening is anywhere from 5 - 15 moves long before you might see a non-trival expectation of deviating from explored lines, so memorizing 960 openings to any reasonable level of depth quickly becomes highly impractical.