5 ms·

This is bucket-crab talk. Not getting a reward is not the same as getting penalized; those who paid everything off have an unchanged situation. You might say th

This is bucket-crab talk. Not getting a reward is not the same as getting penalized; those who paid everything off have an unchanged situation. You might say the action doesn't go far enough and should lift up more people, and there is an argument for that. This, however, just smacks of "the train ran over me, so it's disrespectful if it doesnt also run over everyone else."

Ekaros 4y ago
Money does not magically appear from nowhere...
- hashmap 4y ago
  It is debt that does disappear if it is forgiven.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Debt is money...
    - hashmap 4y ago
      That disappears when forgiven, exactly.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        If you loan me 10k, and then later forgive the loan, you are still 10k in the hole. I spent the 10k on goods and services, and you have 10k less that you can spend. Alternatively, can I borrow $10k from you?
s1artibartfast 4y ago
It isn't crab bucket mentality if you have to pay to lift others up.
- hashmap 4y ago
  It is not a tax levied on you, so you are not paying for it.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Who is paying for it then and why do my taxes keep going up?
    - hashmap 4y ago
      Err.. did you just look at your taxes and think, "this must be that student loan forgiveness!!"? Student loan forgiveness is not being "paid for", because no money is changing hands. It is debt that is being forgiven. The government is not paying money out for this, because it is already spent. Your taxes keep going up because you are making more money. It's not a bad problem to have.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        Federal and state taxes and spending are continually increasing. Federal spending tripled since 1970, after accounting for inflation and population change. State governments have done much the same. >Student loan forgiveness is not being "paid for", because no money is changing hands. My that measure, my bank shouldn't mind if I don't pay my mortgage. After all, new money isn't being spent.
        hashmap 4y ago
        > My that measure, my bank shouldn't mind if I don't pay my mortgage. After all, new money isn't being spent. That's silliness. Your bank is not going to forgive your debt, so that will not pan out for you. Biden is forgiving the $10,000 in loans, so that will pan out for the recipients.
        s1artibartfast 4y ago
ctoth 4y ago
When you say those who paid everything off have an unchanged situation when compared to people who didn't and instead got the subsidy... What precisely do you mean? If money is fungible then the person who didn't pay their debt off and was given an extra $10,000 now has more money than the person who did spend their own money to pay off their debt? This is incontrovertible, right?
- hashmap 4y ago
  If you paid your loans off, you don't lose anything by someone else getting $10,000. That is, indeed, incontrovertible. Imagine I have an apple and you have an apple. If I get another apple, that doesn't mean you now have zero.
  - ctoth 4y ago
    Here's a toy model without interest to make this easier for you to grok: T0: We both have $0. T1: We both borrow $10,000 and have -$10000 T2-T11: We both make $2,000, of which I pay back $1,000, you pay back $0 per time period t11: The government pays off your $10,000 loan At T11 I will have $10,000, and you will have $20,000.
    - hashmap 4y ago
      The government pays off my $10,000 and your situation is literally no different. I'm not sure how you're not getting this. If you were locked in a room and had no idea the government gave me that money you would have no idea and remain unaffected. This is what I mean by bucket-crab mentality. The inability to discern someone else doing better from you doing worse.
      - maerF0x0 4y ago
        > and had no idea the government gave me that money you would have no idea and remain unaffected. Except we do have an idea not just from the news/knowledge, but also from the fact that taxes fund this scenario. One gets their tax money (plus some) back. Another pays taxes, but gets none back.

Ekaros 4y ago

Money does not magically appear from nowhere...

hashmap 4y ago
It is debt that does disappear if it is forgiven.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Debt is money...
  - hashmap 4y ago
    That disappears when forgiven, exactly.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      If you loan me 10k, and then later forgive the loan, you are still 10k in the hole. I spent the 10k on goods and services, and you have 10k less that you can spend. Alternatively, can I borrow $10k from you?

s1artibartfast 4y ago

It isn't crab bucket mentality if you have to pay to lift others up.

hashmap 4y ago
It is not a tax levied on you, so you are not paying for it.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Who is paying for it then and why do my taxes keep going up?
  - hashmap 4y ago
    Err.. did you just look at your taxes and think, "this must be that student loan forgiveness!!"? Student loan forgiveness is not being "paid for", because no money is changing hands. It is debt that is being forgiven. The government is not paying money out for this, because it is already spent. Your taxes keep going up because you are making more money. It's not a bad problem to have.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      Federal and state taxes and spending are continually increasing. Federal spending tripled since 1970, after accounting for inflation and population change. State governments have done much the same. >Student loan forgiveness is not being "paid for", because no money is changing hands. My that measure, my bank shouldn't mind if I don't pay my mortgage. After all, new money isn't being spent.
      - hashmap 4y ago
        > My that measure, my bank shouldn't mind if I don't pay my mortgage. After all, new money isn't being spent. That's silliness. Your bank is not going to forgive your debt, so that will not pan out for you. Biden is forgiving the $10,000 in loans, so that will pan out for the recipients.
        s1artibartfast 4y ago

ctoth 4y ago

When you say those who paid everything off have an unchanged situation when compared to people who didn't and instead got the subsidy... What precisely do you mean? If money is fungible then the person who didn't pay their debt off and was given an extra $10,000 now has more money than the person who did spend their own money to pay off their debt? This is incontrovertible, right?

hashmap 4y ago
If you paid your loans off, you don't lose anything by someone else getting $10,000. That is, indeed, incontrovertible. Imagine I have an apple and you have an apple. If I get another apple, that doesn't mean you now have zero.
- ctoth 4y ago
  Here's a toy model without interest to make this easier for you to grok: T0: We both have $0. T1: We both borrow $10,000 and have -$10000 T2-T11: We both make $2,000, of which I pay back $1,000, you pay back $0 per time period t11: The government pays off your $10,000 loan At T11 I will have $10,000, and you will have $20,000.
  - hashmap 4y ago
    The government pays off my $10,000 and your situation is literally no different. I'm not sure how you're not getting this. If you were locked in a room and had no idea the government gave me that money you would have no idea and remain unaffected. This is what I mean by bucket-crab mentality. The inability to discern someone else doing better from you doing worse.
    - maerF0x0 4y ago
      > and had no idea the government gave me that money you would have no idea and remain unaffected. Except we do have an idea not just from the news/knowledge, but also from the fact that taxes fund this scenario. One gets their tax money (plus some) back. Another pays taxes, but gets none back.