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Yes they have succeeded in using Java to make profit, but argubly not in creating reliable, secure and easily maintainable software. Like I said, even Java's cr

Yes they have succeeded in using Java to make profit, but argubly not in creating reliable, secure and easily maintainable software. Like I said, even Java's creators believe there is significant room for improvement.

kaba0 4y ago
I would argue about that reliable, secure and easily maintainable software. Surely there are terrible examples for unmaintainable software monsters in every language, Java not being exempt. But based on the only relevant, existing evidence on the topic: empirical evidence, Java is probably one of the, if not the best at the software maintainability game. Clean FP in and of itself doesn’t solve the problem, so it’s not like there is a clear cut answer to the question. I do agree that incorporating more and more immutable elements to java is a worthwhile goal to pursue, but at the same time I also believe that on a local, single-threaded scope mutability can increase understanding, so neither imperative nor pure functional is an answer to every problem in themselves. We should strive to make both toolkits available and be ready to use the correct one for each case, the pragmatic approach.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  Where are you drawing that conclusion from? Java has an immense legacy to draw talented developers from. Is it really Java itself, or its legacy?
  - fedeb95 4y ago
    If Java survival is to be attributed to the talent of its developers, isn't this the "Java culture" the post is talking about, which is supposed to be the problem?
    - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
      The culture can both exhibit the problems author describes and create the foundation for its culture to be great at security. Thing is, if I look at most places hiring Java devs, they are prominently places that care a lot about security. Wouldn't it be a self-fulfilling prophecy then, that Java culture cares more about security and tries to maintain higher standards? Especially considering Java was dominant for decades in places willing to pay big for security. I just don't see why that would also mean it's directly atrributable to the language itself to the point it is 'the most'. C# exists too, it's not that different.
fedeb95 4y ago
Go on and argue that, by providing evidence that by using Java you decrease those three metrics compared to other languages, in projects of similar size. I don't know if there are studies but if you know about them please share. Otherwise we're all talking about biased opinions, less the fact that Java is widely used and maintained.
- Retric 4y ago
  That comment is pointless, if you want to raise the level of discourse actually provide some evidence rather than simply request it from others.
  - fedeb95 4y ago
    I didn't make the original post, so while your answer is legit, it goes back to the original poster
    - Retric 4y ago
      I don’t see them asking for studies etc?
      - fedeb95 4y ago
        Nonetheless they state a problem in Java culture. That should be backed by data and not by personal opinions. Otherwise they're worth what is worth. The burden of proof is on who says Java sucks in this or that way. I'm not saying it doesn't. Just that Java is there, used by thousand of professionals making money with it
        Retric 4y ago
        And your back to arguing they should be held to a higher standard with “should be backed” and “The burden of proof” The burden of proof rests on everyone making an argument. There isn’t a privileged stance between Java is ok/awesome/terrible. I think popularity demonstrates it’s not a terrible language like say Brainfuck, but it says little about individual aspects. Individual weaknesses in some aspect could be made up by a strong showing in other areas and being popular alone provides some real advantages.
pards 4y ago
> not in creating reliable, secure and easily maintainable software Every online banking system I've encountered (4+) was built in Java. None of them have been breached. Please cite a counter reference
- Retric 4y ago
  The Equifax data breach was directly related to using Java specifically Apache Struts. Banking software is generally riddled with security issues, if you assume something is secure without having it tested by a 3rd party chances are it’s got issues.
RHSeeger 4y ago
> even Java's creators believe there is significant room for improvement Are there any languages for which this isn't the case? Of those, are any of them in relatively common use for production environments?
PaulHoule 4y ago
I'd say Java is the second programming language that was specified by adults. (The first was Common Lisp) The original Java memory model was broken and got fixed. It took C/C++ another 10 years to do the same. People use Java for server back-ends because it is possible (and not unreasonably difficult) to write correct and high-performance concurrent code with threads.

kaba0 4y ago

I would argue about that reliable, secure and easily maintainable software. Surely there are terrible examples for unmaintainable software monsters in every language, Java not being exempt. But based on the only relevant, existing evidence on the topic: empirical evidence, Java is probably one of the, if not the best at the software maintainability game. Clean FP in and of itself doesn’t solve the problem, so it’s not like there is a clear cut answer to the question. I do agree that incorporating more and more immutable elements to java is a worthwhile goal to pursue, but at the same time I also believe that on a local, single-threaded scope mutability can increase understanding, so neither imperative nor pure functional is an answer to every problem in themselves. We should strive to make both toolkits available and be ready to use the correct one for each case, the pragmatic approach.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
Where are you drawing that conclusion from? Java has an immense legacy to draw talented developers from. Is it really Java itself, or its legacy?
- fedeb95 4y ago
  If Java survival is to be attributed to the talent of its developers, isn't this the "Java culture" the post is talking about, which is supposed to be the problem?
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    The culture can both exhibit the problems author describes and create the foundation for its culture to be great at security. Thing is, if I look at most places hiring Java devs, they are prominently places that care a lot about security. Wouldn't it be a self-fulfilling prophecy then, that Java culture cares more about security and tries to maintain higher standards? Especially considering Java was dominant for decades in places willing to pay big for security. I just don't see why that would also mean it's directly atrributable to the language itself to the point it is 'the most'. C# exists too, it's not that different.

fedeb95 4y ago

Go on and argue that, by providing evidence that by using Java you decrease those three metrics compared to other languages, in projects of similar size. I don't know if there are studies but if you know about them please share. Otherwise we're all talking about biased opinions, less the fact that Java is widely used and maintained.

Retric 4y ago
That comment is pointless, if you want to raise the level of discourse actually provide some evidence rather than simply request it from others.
- fedeb95 4y ago
  I didn't make the original post, so while your answer is legit, it goes back to the original poster
  - Retric 4y ago
    I don’t see them asking for studies etc?
    - fedeb95 4y ago
      Nonetheless they state a problem in Java culture. That should be backed by data and not by personal opinions. Otherwise they're worth what is worth. The burden of proof is on who says Java sucks in this or that way. I'm not saying it doesn't. Just that Java is there, used by thousand of professionals making money with it
      - Retric 4y ago
        And your back to arguing they should be held to a higher standard with “should be backed” and “The burden of proof” The burden of proof rests on everyone making an argument. There isn’t a privileged stance between Java is ok/awesome/terrible. I think popularity demonstrates it’s not a terrible language like say Brainfuck, but it says little about individual aspects. Individual weaknesses in some aspect could be made up by a strong showing in other areas and being popular alone provides some real advantages.

pards 4y ago

> not in creating reliable, secure and easily maintainable software Every online banking system I've encountered (4+) was built in Java. None of them have been breached. Please cite a counter reference

Retric 4y ago
The Equifax data breach was directly related to using Java specifically Apache Struts. Banking software is generally riddled with security issues, if you assume something is secure without having it tested by a 3rd party chances are it’s got issues.

RHSeeger 4y ago

> even Java's creators believe there is significant room for improvement Are there any languages for which this isn't the case? Of those, are any of them in relatively common use for production environments?

PaulHoule 4y ago

I'd say Java is the second programming language that was specified by adults. (The first was Common Lisp) The original Java memory model was broken and got fixed. It took C/C++ another 10 years to do the same. People use Java for server back-ends because it is possible (and not unreasonably difficult) to write correct and high-performance concurrent code with threads.