4 ms·

Peace talks could have involved a return to post-2014 borders as a condition. At this point it’s science-fiction anyway and it’s becoming clear that Ukraine wan

Peace talks could have involved a return to post-2014 borders as a condition. At this point it’s science-fiction anyway and it’s becoming clear that Ukraine wants to take back Crimea. I don’t know nor have access to the information necessary to judge if it would have been better for the population. I just deeply dislike the narrative which pushes the Ukrainian conflict as an unambiguous fight between the forces of good and evil with a single acceptable outcome and where anything short of total support for one side to keep fighting is seen as wrong.

ptr 4y ago
Ukrainians in occupied territories seem to get murdered, tortured and raped. So yeah I think it’s fair to say they’d be better off without the Russians.
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  It’s a war. What did you expect exactly? Now that the Ukrainians are taking back territories I fully expect the purging related stories to be on their way and it’s not going to look pretty as usual. Wars are disgusting affairs. You can’t base your analysis on the reported exactions committed by one side. That’s just setting you as an easy target for propaganda.
  - ptr 4y ago
    1. You're contradicting yourself: in your third point, you say that I shouldn't trust that civilians are getting murdered, raped and tortured. But in your first point, you say that I should be expecting such behavior. 2. I'd expect there to not be a war to begin with. Russia 100% controls this, and can stop whenever they want. 3. War doesn't have to be done in the most brutal way possible. 4. "the purging related stories to be on their way and it’s not going to look pretty as usual" I don't understand what this means. I'm getting very strong pro-Russian vibes from your comments. Not going to reply anymore -- real people are dying.
    - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
      I never said that you shouldn’t trust that civilians are being raped, tortured and murdered. They most definitely are. That’s the reality of war. It’s always brutal. There is no such thing as a clean war. I said focusing on that makes you analysing conflicts poorly and expose you to be manipulated. I am most definitely not pro-Russian. I am very much pro the interests of my own country first however.
samus 4y ago
Any outcome that doesn't discourage Russia from just trying again is obviously bad for the Ukrainian population in the long run. Peace talks before serious Ukranian progress at retaking Crimea would also just be a repetition of previous attempts to resolve the issue and appease Ukraine and the West while pursuing a completely different agenda.
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  Discouraging Russia and retaking Crimea are unrelated goals. I don’t foresee Ukraine getting back Crimea ending well for the population of Crimea. Let’s not forget Crimea has tried to be independent since 1991 and Ukraine had to send its army there in 1995. I don’t think a peaceful reintegration is possible.

ptr 4y ago

Ukrainians in occupied territories seem to get murdered, tortured and raped. So yeah I think it’s fair to say they’d be better off without the Russians.

WastingMyTime89 4y ago
It’s a war. What did you expect exactly? Now that the Ukrainians are taking back territories I fully expect the purging related stories to be on their way and it’s not going to look pretty as usual. Wars are disgusting affairs. You can’t base your analysis on the reported exactions committed by one side. That’s just setting you as an easy target for propaganda.
- ptr 4y ago
  1. You're contradicting yourself: in your third point, you say that I shouldn't trust that civilians are getting murdered, raped and tortured. But in your first point, you say that I should be expecting such behavior. 2. I'd expect there to not be a war to begin with. Russia 100% controls this, and can stop whenever they want. 3. War doesn't have to be done in the most brutal way possible. 4. "the purging related stories to be on their way and it’s not going to look pretty as usual" I don't understand what this means. I'm getting very strong pro-Russian vibes from your comments. Not going to reply anymore -- real people are dying.
  - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
    I never said that you shouldn’t trust that civilians are being raped, tortured and murdered. They most definitely are. That’s the reality of war. It’s always brutal. There is no such thing as a clean war. I said focusing on that makes you analysing conflicts poorly and expose you to be manipulated. I am most definitely not pro-Russian. I am very much pro the interests of my own country first however.

samus 4y ago

Any outcome that doesn't discourage Russia from just trying again is obviously bad for the Ukrainian population in the long run. Peace talks before serious Ukranian progress at retaking Crimea would also just be a repetition of previous attempts to resolve the issue and appease Ukraine and the West while pursuing a completely different agenda.

WastingMyTime89 4y ago
Discouraging Russia and retaking Crimea are unrelated goals. I don’t foresee Ukraine getting back Crimea ending well for the population of Crimea. Let’s not forget Crimea has tried to be independent since 1991 and Ukraine had to send its army there in 1995. I don’t think a peaceful reintegration is possible.