3 ms·

You list several examples where people are selfish. In many cases, the selfishness is not inherent in people, it is a combination of the setup of the system and

You list several examples where people are selfish. In many cases, the selfishness is not inherent in people, it is a combination of the setup of the system and social norms. Using your "boarding a plane" example. Compare boarding a Ryan Air flight from Frankfurt/Hahn to a Lufthansa flight from Frankfurt am Main. Specifically these two, because Germany still has a somewhat cohesive culture/cultural identity, and one which values taking care of the community over self (for example, at dinner, you ALWAYS pour water/wine for others before you fill your own glass). Ryan air. No reserved seats. Pushing, shoving, anger, aggression-- really ugly selfish behavior. Lufthansa. Reserved seats and gate crew controlling boarding. Orderly lines, no stress, people smile and let the families with children go ahead. I won't call it selfless altrusism, but it is a big step up. Swedish airports (Arlanda/Stockholm at least) paint a big yellow line about 1 meter back from the baggage belt, and people stand behind the line. Not everyone, but when someone breaks this rule they get socially disapproving looks from the others. There are two nash equilibriums. When the majority of society shows respect for others, you have a really pleasant society where showing respect/care matters. Freeloaders need to be strongly discouraged, because in the short term freeloading is "optimal". You'll get your bag faster, you'll get the seat you want on the Ryan Air flight. There is a tipping point when too many people start to freeload, happens at around 5-8%, and the system slips into the other nash equilibrium where everyone selfishly tries to grab for themself. Makes for a hellish society. The tragedy is that it is very hard to move from the selfish society to the caring society.

FeepingCreature 4y ago
For further reference, the googleable terms are "high/low trust society".
dijit 4y ago
I’m not sure it’s as cut and dry as that. I flew from Munich to Copenhagen on Friday with Lufthansa. I was on an aisle seat and was deadlocked twice while leaving the plane, there were also people crowding the luggage conveyor belt, which is why those examples come to mind. It’s not about cheap vs expensive or culture vs nature: humans have the capacity to be altruistic, but it seems quite common to be selfish.
- mellavora 4y ago
  no, it is exactly culture vs nature. we can cultivate a high trust society in which altrusism is the norm, or we can cultivate a low trust society where selfishness is the norm. I chose the airport examples to match the parent observations. I've seen other examples, for example driving patterns. I remember the one summer (actually about a 2 week period) when Minnesota when from "almost no-one cuts in line to get off the freeway" to "everyone tries to push their way through traffic". And just like that, 30 years of high trust is gone. The famous Marshmallow Test. Do the kids have high trust or low trust in the authority figure to give them 2 marshmallows? On a positive example, the (US) military puts a lot of emphasis on high-trust. We are sadly living in an age where the increasing power of money (as "portable reputation") vs reputation based on people respecting what you've contributed to society heavily rewards low trust. Because it doesn't matter as much how you got the money, it just matters that you have it. That, plus the unequal wealth distribution, creates envy and distrust. And money scales to current population levels. Personal reputation does not.
  - todorus 4y ago
    "The famous Marshmallow Test. Do the kids have high trust or low trust in the authority figure to give them 2 marshmallows?" Not a good example as those were about the child having the discipline to wait the needed time for the second marshmallow. Trust wasn't measured. You can argue that the kid needs trust to get to the discipline part, but then you're not talking about that experiment anymore, and the burden of proof increases significantly. Also it has been debunked as an indicator of discipline and later succes in life, and has now become a famous example of the reproduction problem psychology is reckoning with. I would just generally stay away from it to proof a point. It will only weaken your position if someone familiar with it. Sorry for being off topic here, but it's popular use is starting to irk me
  - moistly 4y ago
    And how do you cultivate a high trust society? I’d argue: “propaganda” — aka publicly-funded social-positive television (TikTok?) videos like Sesame Street; pro-social school/classroom programming; worker safety standard posters and helpline numbers; a ton of messaging about how to behave and how to expect others to behave, about safety, about support, about good decisions (buckle up!), etc. We have to invest in our society.

FeepingCreature 4y ago

For further reference, the googleable terms are "high/low trust society".

dijit 4y ago

I’m not sure it’s as cut and dry as that. I flew from Munich to Copenhagen on Friday with Lufthansa. I was on an aisle seat and was deadlocked twice while leaving the plane, there were also people crowding the luggage conveyor belt, which is why those examples come to mind. It’s not about cheap vs expensive or culture vs nature: humans have the capacity to be altruistic, but it seems quite common to be selfish.

mellavora 4y ago
no, it is exactly culture vs nature. we can cultivate a high trust society in which altrusism is the norm, or we can cultivate a low trust society where selfishness is the norm. I chose the airport examples to match the parent observations. I've seen other examples, for example driving patterns. I remember the one summer (actually about a 2 week period) when Minnesota when from "almost no-one cuts in line to get off the freeway" to "everyone tries to push their way through traffic". And just like that, 30 years of high trust is gone. The famous Marshmallow Test. Do the kids have high trust or low trust in the authority figure to give them 2 marshmallows? On a positive example, the (US) military puts a lot of emphasis on high-trust. We are sadly living in an age where the increasing power of money (as "portable reputation") vs reputation based on people respecting what you've contributed to society heavily rewards low trust. Because it doesn't matter as much how you got the money, it just matters that you have it. That, plus the unequal wealth distribution, creates envy and distrust. And money scales to current population levels. Personal reputation does not.
- todorus 4y ago
  "The famous Marshmallow Test. Do the kids have high trust or low trust in the authority figure to give them 2 marshmallows?" Not a good example as those were about the child having the discipline to wait the needed time for the second marshmallow. Trust wasn't measured. You can argue that the kid needs trust to get to the discipline part, but then you're not talking about that experiment anymore, and the burden of proof increases significantly. Also it has been debunked as an indicator of discipline and later succes in life, and has now become a famous example of the reproduction problem psychology is reckoning with. I would just generally stay away from it to proof a point. It will only weaken your position if someone familiar with it. Sorry for being off topic here, but it's popular use is starting to irk me
- moistly 4y ago
  And how do you cultivate a high trust society? I’d argue: “propaganda” — aka publicly-funded social-positive television (TikTok?) videos like Sesame Street; pro-social school/classroom programming; worker safety standard posters and helpline numbers; a ton of messaging about how to behave and how to expect others to behave, about safety, about support, about good decisions (buckle up!), etc. We have to invest in our society.