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It’s a lot more complicated to be honest. There are different ways to end the conflicts and different degrees of support possible. Some European countries were

It’s a lot more complicated to be honest. There are different ways to end the conflicts and different degrees of support possible. Some European countries were in favour of pushing for peace talks far earlier but the current Ukrainian government has complete support from the USA and territorial ambition of its own. Belligerents are not into it out of the goodness of their heart you know. It’s not really about saving Ukrainian lives. It’s actually far from obvious that prolonging the war saves lives. But most of the EU has taken a very Atlantist position on this conflict and at this point it’s probably better to keep going and significantly neuter Russia.

ivan_gammel 4y ago
The longer is the war the higher is the risk for the local population on occupied territories. Not only because of filtration and direct oppression by security forces, but also because of reduced access to healthcare and basic necessities like food, heating, drinking water etc. The winter is coming and the infrastructure in many cities and villages is completely destroyed. Russia does not demonstrate any intent to rebuild it in next few months. EDIT: „the longer is occupation..“ will be more correct. This is an incentive for liberation more than for negotiation.
actionfromafar 4y ago
Peace talks earlier would maybe have saved lives, but what kind of life is it living under Russian rule? Russia is deteriorating and is apparently trying to solve it with conquest. Giving in would be like telling the police to don't disturb the mob when doing extortion, someone might get killed.
samus 4y ago
Peace talks before Russia is pushed back at least to Ukraine's post-2014 borders is basically a victory for Russia, and we would have this conversation again in 5-10 years.
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  Peace talks could have involved a return to post-2014 borders as a condition. At this point it’s science-fiction anyway and it’s becoming clear that Ukraine wants to take back Crimea. I don’t know nor have access to the information necessary to judge if it would have been better for the population. I just deeply dislike the narrative which pushes the Ukrainian conflict as an unambiguous fight between the forces of good and evil with a single acceptable outcome and where anything short of total support for one side to keep fighting is seen as wrong.
  - ptr 4y ago
    Ukrainians in occupied territories seem to get murdered, tortured and raped. So yeah I think it’s fair to say they’d be better off without the Russians.
    - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
      It’s a war. What did you expect exactly? Now that the Ukrainians are taking back territories I fully expect the purging related stories to be on their way and it’s not going to look pretty as usual. Wars are disgusting affairs. You can’t base your analysis on the reported exactions committed by one side. That’s just setting you as an easy target for propaganda.
      - ptr 4y ago
        1. You're contradicting yourself: in your third point, you say that I shouldn't trust that civilians are getting murdered, raped and tortured. But in your first point, you say that I should be expecting such behavior. 2. I'd expect there to not be a war to begin with. Russia 100% controls this, and can stop whenever they want. 3. War doesn't have to be done in the most brutal way possible. 4. "the purging related stories to be on their way and it’s not going to look pretty as usual" I don't understand what this means. I'm getting very strong pro-Russian vibes from your comments. Not going to reply anymore -- real people are dying.
deleted 4y ago
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ivan_gammel 4y ago

The longer is the war the higher is the risk for the local population on occupied territories. Not only because of filtration and direct oppression by security forces, but also because of reduced access to healthcare and basic necessities like food, heating, drinking water etc. The winter is coming and the infrastructure in many cities and villages is completely destroyed. Russia does not demonstrate any intent to rebuild it in next few months. EDIT: „the longer is occupation..“ will be more correct. This is an incentive for liberation more than for negotiation.

actionfromafar 4y ago

Peace talks earlier would maybe have saved lives, but what kind of life is it living under Russian rule? Russia is deteriorating and is apparently trying to solve it with conquest. Giving in would be like telling the police to don't disturb the mob when doing extortion, someone might get killed.

samus 4y ago

Peace talks before Russia is pushed back at least to Ukraine's post-2014 borders is basically a victory for Russia, and we would have this conversation again in 5-10 years.

WastingMyTime89 4y ago
Peace talks could have involved a return to post-2014 borders as a condition. At this point it’s science-fiction anyway and it’s becoming clear that Ukraine wants to take back Crimea. I don’t know nor have access to the information necessary to judge if it would have been better for the population. I just deeply dislike the narrative which pushes the Ukrainian conflict as an unambiguous fight between the forces of good and evil with a single acceptable outcome and where anything short of total support for one side to keep fighting is seen as wrong.
- ptr 4y ago
  Ukrainians in occupied territories seem to get murdered, tortured and raped. So yeah I think it’s fair to say they’d be better off without the Russians.
  - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
    It’s a war. What did you expect exactly? Now that the Ukrainians are taking back territories I fully expect the purging related stories to be on their way and it’s not going to look pretty as usual. Wars are disgusting affairs. You can’t base your analysis on the reported exactions committed by one side. That’s just setting you as an easy target for propaganda.
    - ptr 4y ago
      1. You're contradicting yourself: in your third point, you say that I shouldn't trust that civilians are getting murdered, raped and tortured. But in your first point, you say that I should be expecting such behavior. 2. I'd expect there to not be a war to begin with. Russia 100% controls this, and can stop whenever they want. 3. War doesn't have to be done in the most brutal way possible. 4. "the purging related stories to be on their way and it’s not going to look pretty as usual" I don't understand what this means. I'm getting very strong pro-Russian vibes from your comments. Not going to reply anymore -- real people are dying.

deleted 4y ago

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