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Correct, the best way to unite a group is to attack its core values - a sure way to bring people together. If we, as Europeans, allow Russia to proceed, just to

Correct, the best way to unite a group is to attack its core values - a sure way to bring people together. If we, as Europeans, allow Russia to proceed, just to stay warm in winter, we'd give up on our core values, which are what makes us a democratic Europe.

eurasiantiger 4y ago
Which is why Europe (and the US) have been instituted with so many divisive movements in the recent decade.
- mellavora 4y ago
  - redscareone 4y ago
    - mellavora 4y ago
      hmm, an instant reply, from a newly created account, leading with a patently false accusation followed by extreme examples which don't match reality. yes, looks like typical move of Russian-sponsored actors. Thanks, redscareone, that's exactly the kind of proof my argument needed.
      - redscareone 4y ago
      - dang 4y ago
        It's against the HN guidelines to post like this here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or how bad their comments are. We've banned that troll account, but we also ban accounts that break the site guidelines in the way you just did, so please don't do it again. "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
        eurasiantiger 4y ago
        >we’ll look at the data Just to check, did you look at the data in this case?
        dang 4y ago
        Yes.
POPOSYS 4y ago
Then Europeans will have to fight anti-demcratic movements in Hungary, Poland, Sweden, Italy, Spain, wait... more and more of Europe is on the list of countries where political parties with openly anti-democratic values ("illiberal democracies") are not only in parliaments, but also in governments. See recent success for "Sweden Democrats" and take a look at the votes in Italy next week. Also you have to always remember that Ursula von der Leyen could only get into her position with the help of the vote of far right - she will never be against far right for that reason alone. There is a huge theater going on re "european values" - this is not reflected by reality. E.g. the current "measures" taken against Hungary are seen as a joke.
- the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
  Your comment is an unnecessarily long way to say "imperfect things are not perfect". Democracies are unstable and need constant defense. That's not a new thing and that will be true for a long time to come.

eurasiantiger 4y ago

Which is why Europe (and the US) have been instituted with so many divisive movements in the recent decade.

mellavora 4y ago
- redscareone 4y ago
  - mellavora 4y ago
    hmm, an instant reply, from a newly created account, leading with a patently false accusation followed by extreme examples which don't match reality. yes, looks like typical move of Russian-sponsored actors. Thanks, redscareone, that's exactly the kind of proof my argument needed.
    - redscareone 4y ago
    - dang 4y ago
      It's against the HN guidelines to post like this here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or how bad their comments are. We've banned that troll account, but we also ban accounts that break the site guidelines in the way you just did, so please don't do it again. "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
      - eurasiantiger 4y ago
        >we’ll look at the data Just to check, did you look at the data in this case?
        dang 4y ago
        Yes.

POPOSYS 4y ago

Then Europeans will have to fight anti-demcratic movements in Hungary, Poland, Sweden, Italy, Spain, wait... more and more of Europe is on the list of countries where political parties with openly anti-democratic values ("illiberal democracies") are not only in parliaments, but also in governments. See recent success for "Sweden Democrats" and take a look at the votes in Italy next week. Also you have to always remember that Ursula von der Leyen could only get into her position with the help of the vote of far right - she will never be against far right for that reason alone. There is a huge theater going on re "european values" - this is not reflected by reality. E.g. the current "measures" taken against Hungary are seen as a joke.

the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
Your comment is an unnecessarily long way to say "imperfect things are not perfect". Democracies are unstable and need constant defense. That's not a new thing and that will be true for a long time to come.