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Crypto has not automated away anything useful beyond toy projects nor shown potential to do more with less. If crypto disappeared today its disappearance would

Crypto has not automated away anything useful beyond toy projects nor shown potential to do more with less. If crypto disappeared today its disappearance would have zero impact on goods and services.

Galanwe 4y ago
I'm sorry what? At the very minimum crypto showed that you can run an efficient, highly liquid, double digit billion dollar, fungible or non fungible exchange market in a fully automated and distributed manner. A huge fiat equity market such as NYSE averages $3B/d, crypto DEXes alone is around $2B/d. Crypto also completely removes the need for middle and back offices, clearing houses, etc. on these platforms. Just technology wise (if we were to drop the self-sovereignty of crypto tokens and just use central bank backed crypto euro/dollar/etc to replace the current financial system) a monstrous amount of manpower and energy could be saved by removing the banks, exchanges, brokers, clearing houses, compensation chambers, back office, etc. industries.
- p4bl0 4y ago
  I'm sorry what? In practice, crypto markets are not any more decentralized than others. In real life people use hosted wallets on exchange platform. Transactions happen on a distributed (not decentralized!) ledger. The underlying network is only somewhat decentralized (the mining economy tends to the concentration of big players). Also the way you seem to imagine we could be "removing the banks, exchanges, brokers, clearing houses, compensation chambers, back office, etc." just shows how much you don't know about how an economy works. Real-world transactions need to be reversible, need escrow, guarantees and a lot of other mechanisms that are by design not available using blockchains based assets (if they are there, it means the assumptions which would have made a blockchain useful have been broken, and that we can achieve the same features and services without a blockchain in a more efficient manner).
  - zeroclip 4y ago
    > In real life people use hosted wallets on exchange platform. The parent mentions DEX volume, which tracks on-chain wallet usage, not what is being traded in a CEX. > Real-world transactions need to be reversible, need escrow, guarantees and a lot of other mechanisms that are by design not available using blockchains based assets Many blockchain transactions have reversibility, employ escrow, and have very strong cryptographic guarantees. The only point of your post that is not easily refuted is: blockchain is not decentralized enough. But compared to what? Is Ethereum, open source software with many thousands of nodes and developers spread across the world, more or less centralized than the US dollar?
    - Jommi 4y ago
      Even IRL, trading platforms usually offer no guarantee of any kind of reversibility outside of specific agreements.
      - zeroclip 4y ago
        Not even just trading platforms but also major payment processors: https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/235171088-Cancel-Payment https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/235171088-Cancel-Pa...
  - Jommi 4y ago
    You should look into how DEXes and AMM architecture works, it will blow your mind
  - Galanwe 4y ago
    Why bother replying if you have no clue what you are talking about... > In practice, crypto markets are not any more decentralized than others. I specifically mentioned DEX, you are talking about CEX. > Also the way you seem to imagine we could be "removing the banks, exchanges, brokers, clearing houses, compensation chambers, back office, etc." just shows how much you don't know about how an economy works. So you are at lost of arguments and start questioning the argumenter pedigree instead? if you want to go that route: I have 15 years of experience in financial markets, am partner and founder in 2 (running) investments funds, trading equities, FX forwards, equity futures and interest rate swaps for ~1.5B AUM. I am currently a registered MIC on 5 accounts with the SFC (some of these including operational risk). I have setup multiple front office systems, work daily with middle office systems, and have a fairly good understanding of back office. I have worked extensively with clearing houses, most recently for the implementation of central clearing on interest rate products. So please, explain me how you somehow have such a deep knowledge of these subjects that you can obviously see from my comment that I "don't know much about how finance works"?! > Real-world transactions need to be reversible, need escrow, guarantees and a lot of other mechanisms that are by design not available using blockchains based assets I will play your game: you have definitely 0 idea what exists in the crypto space. Everyting your mentions and much, much more already exists. The sophistication available on crypto contracts and protocols nowadays is at the very least on par with traditional finance entities and contrats, if beyond.
cowtools 4y ago
Well, it has at least facilitated the Silk Road and many others to do business. Regardless, I suppose that I agree with your point here. But I think that cryptocurrency could possible be useful for everyday transactions: it must first overcome network effects.
throwawayKiwi9 4y ago
I had to cash a check yesterday. This would have been a single CLI command with crypto. Ignoring the fact that this is a 100+ mile journey for me, I had to speak with real humans to get payment in hand. Just how much manpower and resources are spent simply in getting the cash from these federal printers to my hand, resources that I am inadvertently paying for? From Multiple CEO salaries to armored truck transportation to the cleaning person at the branch. and much more. I just think if people are going to slam crypto for resource consumption, you can't overlook fiat's true overall resource consumption.
- junofan 4y ago
  Financial services are like 20–25% of the global economy. Could be lower for sure.
- pas 4y ago
  okay, and will crypto solve this? it seems Venmo has a better chance at this, or the new Fed semi-instant transfer initiative or whatever. also, how many checks are cashed in person nowadays? they can be submitted via a photo at most big banks, no?
- ahtihn 4y ago
  > I had to cash a check yesterday Yeah, the american banking system is stuck in the stone age for some reason. You don't need crypto to solve that. Ask Europeans how often they use checks.
- EliRivers 4y ago
  "This would have been a single CLI command with crypto." Would it? Would you have actual cash at that point? Physical banknotes in your hand you can then spend in an ordinary shop? Are you genuinely comparing similar things here?
  - throwawayKiwi9 4y ago
    In my case, yes. I simply wanted to be paid for my work and provided a form of currency that I can spend.

Crypto has not automated away anything useful beyond toy projects nor shown potential to do more with less. If crypto disappeared today its disappearance would have zero impact on goods and services.

Galanwe 4y ago

I'm sorry what? At the very minimum crypto showed that you can run an efficient, highly liquid, double digit billion dollar, fungible or non fungible exchange market in a fully automated and distributed manner. A huge fiat equity market such as NYSE averages $3B/d, crypto DEXes alone is around $2B/d. Crypto also completely removes the need for middle and back offices, clearing houses, etc. on these platforms. Just technology wise (if we were to drop the self-sovereignty of crypto tokens and just use central bank backed crypto euro/dollar/etc to replace the current financial system) a monstrous amount of manpower and energy could be saved by removing the banks, exchanges, brokers, clearing houses, compensation chambers, back office, etc. industries.

p4bl0 4y ago
I'm sorry what? In practice, crypto markets are not any more decentralized than others. In real life people use hosted wallets on exchange platform. Transactions happen on a distributed (not decentralized!) ledger. The underlying network is only somewhat decentralized (the mining economy tends to the concentration of big players). Also the way you seem to imagine we could be "removing the banks, exchanges, brokers, clearing houses, compensation chambers, back office, etc." just shows how much you don't know about how an economy works. Real-world transactions need to be reversible, need escrow, guarantees and a lot of other mechanisms that are by design not available using blockchains based assets (if they are there, it means the assumptions which would have made a blockchain useful have been broken, and that we can achieve the same features and services without a blockchain in a more efficient manner).
- zeroclip 4y ago
  > In real life people use hosted wallets on exchange platform. The parent mentions DEX volume, which tracks on-chain wallet usage, not what is being traded in a CEX. > Real-world transactions need to be reversible, need escrow, guarantees and a lot of other mechanisms that are by design not available using blockchains based assets Many blockchain transactions have reversibility, employ escrow, and have very strong cryptographic guarantees. The only point of your post that is not easily refuted is: blockchain is not decentralized enough. But compared to what? Is Ethereum, open source software with many thousands of nodes and developers spread across the world, more or less centralized than the US dollar?
  - Jommi 4y ago
    Even IRL, trading platforms usually offer no guarantee of any kind of reversibility outside of specific agreements.
    - zeroclip 4y ago
      Not even just trading platforms but also major payment processors: https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/235171088-Cancel-Payment https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/235171088-Cancel-Pa...
- Jommi 4y ago
  You should look into how DEXes and AMM architecture works, it will blow your mind
- Galanwe 4y ago
  Why bother replying if you have no clue what you are talking about... > In practice, crypto markets are not any more decentralized than others. I specifically mentioned DEX, you are talking about CEX. > Also the way you seem to imagine we could be "removing the banks, exchanges, brokers, clearing houses, compensation chambers, back office, etc." just shows how much you don't know about how an economy works. So you are at lost of arguments and start questioning the argumenter pedigree instead? if you want to go that route: I have 15 years of experience in financial markets, am partner and founder in 2 (running) investments funds, trading equities, FX forwards, equity futures and interest rate swaps for ~1.5B AUM. I am currently a registered MIC on 5 accounts with the SFC (some of these including operational risk). I have setup multiple front office systems, work daily with middle office systems, and have a fairly good understanding of back office. I have worked extensively with clearing houses, most recently for the implementation of central clearing on interest rate products. So please, explain me how you somehow have such a deep knowledge of these subjects that you can obviously see from my comment that I "don't know much about how finance works"?! > Real-world transactions need to be reversible, need escrow, guarantees and a lot of other mechanisms that are by design not available using blockchains based assets I will play your game: you have definitely 0 idea what exists in the crypto space. Everyting your mentions and much, much more already exists. The sophistication available on crypto contracts and protocols nowadays is at the very least on par with traditional finance entities and contrats, if beyond.

cowtools 4y ago

Well, it has at least facilitated the Silk Road and many others to do business. Regardless, I suppose that I agree with your point here. But I think that cryptocurrency could possible be useful for everyday transactions: it must first overcome network effects.

throwawayKiwi9 4y ago

I had to cash a check yesterday. This would have been a single CLI command with crypto. Ignoring the fact that this is a 100+ mile journey for me, I had to speak with real humans to get payment in hand. Just how much manpower and resources are spent simply in getting the cash from these federal printers to my hand, resources that I am inadvertently paying for? From Multiple CEO salaries to armored truck transportation to the cleaning person at the branch. and much more. I just think if people are going to slam crypto for resource consumption, you can't overlook fiat's true overall resource consumption.

junofan 4y ago
Financial services are like 20–25% of the global economy. Could be lower for sure.
pas 4y ago
okay, and will crypto solve this? it seems Venmo has a better chance at this, or the new Fed semi-instant transfer initiative or whatever. also, how many checks are cashed in person nowadays? they can be submitted via a photo at most big banks, no?
ahtihn 4y ago
> I had to cash a check yesterday Yeah, the american banking system is stuck in the stone age for some reason. You don't need crypto to solve that. Ask Europeans how often they use checks.
EliRivers 4y ago
"This would have been a single CLI command with crypto." Would it? Would you have actual cash at that point? Physical banknotes in your hand you can then spend in an ordinary shop? Are you genuinely comparing similar things here?
- throwawayKiwi9 4y ago
  In my case, yes. I simply wanted to be paid for my work and provided a form of currency that I can spend.