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Why is it horrible advice? It’s equivalent to telling someone to use Linux, which doesn’t have SIP either. SIP is personal preference. Personally I find that M

Why is it horrible advice? It’s equivalent to telling someone to use Linux, which doesn’t have SIP either. SIP is personal preference. Personally I find that Mac OS is too buggy with SIP enabled. I had an issue where disk space was disappearing into a directory that was hidden by SIP, because the OS was leaking update images.

Closi 4y ago
> Why is it horrible advice? It’s equivalent to telling someone to use Linux, which doesn’t have SIP either. These two OS’s have very different types of user and attacker (speaking in generalities), and thus different security trade-offs during design. The main risk with Mac is that someone downloads a “Mac cleaner” or something similar which installs malware, or that malware is hidden in a legitimate looking app, and this is what SIP protects against. Even informed power users can make these mistakes - it only takes downloading one compromised utility! IMO for most ‘home’ use where it is used as a main OS by a person without too much familiarity with computers, Ubuntu and many Linux distros are probably less secure than Mac - for instance the average user is conditioned to run random terminal commands they find on the internet and give them sudo permission. Obviously I’m excluding the majority of use-cases such as routers, consoles, tvs, servers where users access to the underlying OS is heavily restricted.
- alexeiz 4y ago
  Measures like SIP force application developers to create workarounds that compromise system security even more. Remember the recent Zoom vulnerability where they created a special service to autoupdate Zoom? If the system is too restrictive, developers will try to punch holes in it to accomplish what they need.
  - buildbot 4y ago
    I for one am really really glad zoom is unable to mess with the rest of the macos system…
  - Closi 4y ago
    > Measures like SIP force application developers to create workarounds that compromise system security even more. Remember the recent Zoom vulnerability where they created a special service to autoupdate Zoom? If the system is too restrictive, developers will try to punch holes in it to accomplish what they need. That wasn't related to SIP, so I don't think we can just throw random unrelated security issues against SIP to justify it being a bad thing. Bedsides, is the moral of the Zoom story really that application Developers should be given unfettered access to the OS and the freedom to do whatever they want? It sounds like the opposite - an example of exactly why security has to be built into the OS and can't be left to companies like Zoom.
    - wetpaws 4y ago
      Those who want security over performance will get neither security nor performance.
- zarzavat 4y ago
  Okay sure I agree that my parents shouldn’t turn off SIP, not that they would know how to. But in this case the advice comes from Allan Odgaard, the author of TextMate, on a blog called SIGPIPE. A certain amount of technical expertise can be assumed from the audience.
  - Closi 4y ago
    I know we like to think we are all unique and invulnerable to these attacks, but technical people still manage to download dodgy software out in the wild. Plus, some categories of technical users like sysadmins are probably the worst possible people to disable SIP because even though the probability of attack is much lower, the potential impact is orders of magnitude higher.
    - mathewsanders 4y ago
      Yup! I had a great reminder of this recently: I always ignore spam text messages, but got a phishing attack message made to look like a USPS update about 2 months ago they almost fooled me because I had a legitimate package that was missing. I clicked the link, and even entered my email address in the landing page form and was about to enter credit card details for a $2 ‘redelivery’ charge - which I was also primed for because I’d recently paid USPS a similar amount to redirect my mail after moving. I was creating a one-time use virtual card to make the payment when my thoughts caught up with me and I realized it wasn’t a legitimate page.
    - sangnoir 4y ago
      > I know we like to think we are all unique and invulnerable to these attacks, but technical people still manage to download dodgy software out in the wild. Good old Apple, slowing my(?) Computer down daily to protect me from myself. Does anyone tally attacks by type? i suspect most successful attacks against sysadmins are via social engineering/xss/token stealing on their perfectly uncompromised machines rather than malware.
    - zarzavat 4y ago
      Ergo using Linux is irresponsible? It’s the double-think I have a problem with. Either 1) we say that Mac-using developers are stupider than Linux using-developers, and it’s irresponsible for Mac-using developers specifically to turn it off. Or 2) we say that Linux is “horribly” insecure and it’s irresponsible for developers to use Linux whatsoever and they should go out and buy a Mac immediately to save themselves. Or 3) we say that Mac-using developers are not stupider than Linux using developers and it’s fine to turn it off if they want. Personally I’ll go for #3.
- lapcat 4y ago
  > this is what SIP protects against SIP does not protect you against installing and running malware. SIP protects certain system components on the Mac, that's all.
alexeiz 4y ago
This is exactly why I use Linux. There is nothing subversive going on behind the scenes. My system trusts that I know what I'm doing and that's why I like it. Also on Windows, the first thing I do is disable the Windows Defender. And believe it or not, I haven't had any viruses for as long as I can remember using computers. On the other hand, half a year ago I've investigated a compromised macOS system at work where the user clicked a wrong button on some innocently looking dialog and ended up with a rogue extension in Google Chrome which was not possible to uninstall. Why didn't SIP prevent that from happening?
- buildbot 4y ago
  Because Chrome is not part of the MacOS operating system?
- highwaylights 4y ago
  > Also on Windows, the first thing I do is disable the Windows Defender. And believe it or not, I haven't had any viruses for as long as I can remember using computers. Prove it.
  - depr 4y ago
    You prove Windows Defender will keep you virus free first
    - highwaylights 4y ago
      Well, you can easily find out if it's detected anything by checking it's history, as opposed to having no idea if you have any malware whatsoever - which is what you're advocating for with this stance.
      - ubercow13 4y ago
        Right, so check it first, and if it hasn't ever found anything, I guess you're good to disable it.
highwaylights 4y ago
It's not at all the same. Linux doesn't have SIP, or Gatekeeper, or XProtect, but you know it doesn't have any of those features. The developers know it doesn't have any of those features, so the absence of those features are part of the attack surface that the vendor (in this case the Linux OSS community) is aware of in the threat model. If you have SIP disabled, no-one is trying to solve any problems that this causes for you. Anyone writing malware to target a SIP-disabled system knows Apple isn't trying to patch those issues because having SIP disabled is not a valid system state they're trying to protect. There won't be patches for you, and given that it's closed source, it's not like you can fix it yourself.
- vbezhenar 4y ago
  SIP does not solve any problems. SIP only breaks some programs, that's the whole reason of its existence. I don't think that running malware on your computer is a good idea. Just don't do it.
  - tmoravec 4y ago
    > I don't think that running malware on your computer is a good idea. Just don't do it. I don't think that having vulnerabilities on your computer is a good idea. Just don't do it. /s > SIP does not solve any problems. Of course it does. We might disagree with the tradeoffs it's making, it might not be worth it at all, it might be a wrong approach from the start. But saying it does not solve any problems is disingenuous at best.
  - highwaylights 4y ago
    I don't think dying from cancer is a good idea. Just don't do it. SIP absolutely solves a specific problem. It prevents rogue software from writing to protected areas. Whether that matters to you is your business, but to suggest no-one else should want to prevent any old homebrew package or DMG installing a keylogger is a bit silly.

Closi 4y ago

> Why is it horrible advice? It’s equivalent to telling someone to use Linux, which doesn’t have SIP either. These two OS’s have very different types of user and attacker (speaking in generalities), and thus different security trade-offs during design. The main risk with Mac is that someone downloads a “Mac cleaner” or something similar which installs malware, or that malware is hidden in a legitimate looking app, and this is what SIP protects against. Even informed power users can make these mistakes - it only takes downloading one compromised utility! IMO for most ‘home’ use where it is used as a main OS by a person without too much familiarity with computers, Ubuntu and many Linux distros are probably less secure than Mac - for instance the average user is conditioned to run random terminal commands they find on the internet and give them sudo permission. Obviously I’m excluding the majority of use-cases such as routers, consoles, tvs, servers where users access to the underlying OS is heavily restricted.

alexeiz 4y ago
Measures like SIP force application developers to create workarounds that compromise system security even more. Remember the recent Zoom vulnerability where they created a special service to autoupdate Zoom? If the system is too restrictive, developers will try to punch holes in it to accomplish what they need.
- buildbot 4y ago
  I for one am really really glad zoom is unable to mess with the rest of the macos system…
- Closi 4y ago
  > Measures like SIP force application developers to create workarounds that compromise system security even more. Remember the recent Zoom vulnerability where they created a special service to autoupdate Zoom? If the system is too restrictive, developers will try to punch holes in it to accomplish what they need. That wasn't related to SIP, so I don't think we can just throw random unrelated security issues against SIP to justify it being a bad thing. Bedsides, is the moral of the Zoom story really that application Developers should be given unfettered access to the OS and the freedom to do whatever they want? It sounds like the opposite - an example of exactly why security has to be built into the OS and can't be left to companies like Zoom.
  - wetpaws 4y ago
    Those who want security over performance will get neither security nor performance.
zarzavat 4y ago
Okay sure I agree that my parents shouldn’t turn off SIP, not that they would know how to. But in this case the advice comes from Allan Odgaard, the author of TextMate, on a blog called SIGPIPE. A certain amount of technical expertise can be assumed from the audience.
- Closi 4y ago
  I know we like to think we are all unique and invulnerable to these attacks, but technical people still manage to download dodgy software out in the wild. Plus, some categories of technical users like sysadmins are probably the worst possible people to disable SIP because even though the probability of attack is much lower, the potential impact is orders of magnitude higher.
  - mathewsanders 4y ago
    Yup! I had a great reminder of this recently: I always ignore spam text messages, but got a phishing attack message made to look like a USPS update about 2 months ago they almost fooled me because I had a legitimate package that was missing. I clicked the link, and even entered my email address in the landing page form and was about to enter credit card details for a $2 ‘redelivery’ charge - which I was also primed for because I’d recently paid USPS a similar amount to redirect my mail after moving. I was creating a one-time use virtual card to make the payment when my thoughts caught up with me and I realized it wasn’t a legitimate page.
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    > I know we like to think we are all unique and invulnerable to these attacks, but technical people still manage to download dodgy software out in the wild. Good old Apple, slowing my(?) Computer down daily to protect me from myself. Does anyone tally attacks by type? i suspect most successful attacks against sysadmins are via social engineering/xss/token stealing on their perfectly uncompromised machines rather than malware.
  - zarzavat 4y ago
    Ergo using Linux is irresponsible? It’s the double-think I have a problem with. Either 1) we say that Mac-using developers are stupider than Linux using-developers, and it’s irresponsible for Mac-using developers specifically to turn it off. Or 2) we say that Linux is “horribly” insecure and it’s irresponsible for developers to use Linux whatsoever and they should go out and buy a Mac immediately to save themselves. Or 3) we say that Mac-using developers are not stupider than Linux using developers and it’s fine to turn it off if they want. Personally I’ll go for #3.
lapcat 4y ago
> this is what SIP protects against SIP does not protect you against installing and running malware. SIP protects certain system components on the Mac, that's all.

alexeiz 4y ago

This is exactly why I use Linux. There is nothing subversive going on behind the scenes. My system trusts that I know what I'm doing and that's why I like it. Also on Windows, the first thing I do is disable the Windows Defender. And believe it or not, I haven't had any viruses for as long as I can remember using computers. On the other hand, half a year ago I've investigated a compromised macOS system at work where the user clicked a wrong button on some innocently looking dialog and ended up with a rogue extension in Google Chrome which was not possible to uninstall. Why didn't SIP prevent that from happening?

buildbot 4y ago
Because Chrome is not part of the MacOS operating system?
highwaylights 4y ago
> Also on Windows, the first thing I do is disable the Windows Defender. And believe it or not, I haven't had any viruses for as long as I can remember using computers. Prove it.
- depr 4y ago
  You prove Windows Defender will keep you virus free first
  - highwaylights 4y ago
    Well, you can easily find out if it's detected anything by checking it's history, as opposed to having no idea if you have any malware whatsoever - which is what you're advocating for with this stance.
    - ubercow13 4y ago
      Right, so check it first, and if it hasn't ever found anything, I guess you're good to disable it.

highwaylights 4y ago

It's not at all the same. Linux doesn't have SIP, or Gatekeeper, or XProtect, but you know it doesn't have any of those features. The developers know it doesn't have any of those features, so the absence of those features are part of the attack surface that the vendor (in this case the Linux OSS community) is aware of in the threat model. If you have SIP disabled, no-one is trying to solve any problems that this causes for you. Anyone writing malware to target a SIP-disabled system knows Apple isn't trying to patch those issues because having SIP disabled is not a valid system state they're trying to protect. There won't be patches for you, and given that it's closed source, it's not like you can fix it yourself.

vbezhenar 4y ago
SIP does not solve any problems. SIP only breaks some programs, that's the whole reason of its existence. I don't think that running malware on your computer is a good idea. Just don't do it.
- tmoravec 4y ago
  > I don't think that running malware on your computer is a good idea. Just don't do it. I don't think that having vulnerabilities on your computer is a good idea. Just don't do it. /s > SIP does not solve any problems. Of course it does. We might disagree with the tradeoffs it's making, it might not be worth it at all, it might be a wrong approach from the start. But saying it does not solve any problems is disingenuous at best.
- highwaylights 4y ago
  I don't think dying from cancer is a good idea. Just don't do it. SIP absolutely solves a specific problem. It prevents rogue software from writing to protected areas. Whether that matters to you is your business, but to suggest no-one else should want to prevent any old homebrew package or DMG installing a keylogger is a bit silly.