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Agreed, from a systemic perspective, shit is broken in the US and needs to be fixed. The government should be paying more, and also controlling costs better (US

Agreed, from a systemic perspective, shit is broken in the US and needs to be fixed. The government should be paying more, and also controlling costs better (US universities spend a lot more than universities in other countries). Bare minimum, loans that are protected in bankruptcy should have a limit to how much can be taken out based on the median earnings of those who earn that degree, and this should be annualized such that you can't suddenly hit a limit halfway into your degree. From an individual perspective, people should not be willingly going into large debt for poor or relatively uncertain financial prospects.

woodruffw 4y ago
> From an individual perspective, people should not be willingly going into large debt for poor or relatively uncertain financial prospects. I don't disagree, but I want to highlight some factors that (IMO) at least partially absolve people who do take that route: * We do a really pitiful job of teaching financial literacy in the US, especially below the undergraduate level. I suspect that many people see 30K debt after college and think that they can subtract that directly from their salary over a course of years, without factoring in taxes, interest above the principal, etc. * At a societal level, we avoid crushing peoples' dreams: we all know that we can't each be this century's defining investigative journalist, art critic, &c., and yet we (socially) also understand that we can't get those successes unless lots of people strive towards those goals. Maybe this points to a fundamental error in how we value labor, but that's probably an even harder problem to solve for Americans than restructuring college tuition.
landemva 4y ago
College loans were dischargeable in bankruptcy until Clinton changed it. Biden can have that repealed, but that would upset the bankerster gravy train and could jeopardize political donations by the banksters. https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-budget/283625-how-the-clinton-administration-made-it-harder-on-student https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-budget/28362... Since politicians don't want to repeal the Clinton-era law, the logical choices for many students will be to skip college or to leave USA for college overseas. We are really harming our children with this debt.
- mgamache 4y ago
  Biden helped negotiate that bill.
  - jacobolus 4y ago
    As far as I can tell this was a bill written and negotiated in the GOP-controlled House, by the Education and the Workforce committee. At the time Biden served in the (GOP-controlled) Senate, and not on the relevant committees there. Do you have evidence that Biden specifically was involved in negotiating about this? Or do you just mean that, insofar as he was a member of the Senate, he “helped” by voting for a ~250 page bill that passed 96–1? https://www.congress.gov/bill/105th-congress/house-bill/6 https://www.congress.gov/bill/105th-congress/house-bill/6
    - mgamache 4y ago
      https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/02/joe-biden-student-loan-debt-2005-act-2020 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/02/joe-biden-st... "it is indisputable that Biden was an avid supporter of the 2005 bill as a whole and of its overall thrust of tightening up the bankruptcy code largely to the benefit of lenders at the expense of distressed families who would find it harder to file for bankruptcy." "he used his leadership role to limit the ability of other Democrats who had concerns and who wanted the bill softened" "Senator Biden supports legislation that will fall hardest on women,” she wrote. “Why? The answer will have to come from him … He is a zealous advocate on behalf of one of his biggest contributors – the financial services industry.” -- E Warren in 2005
      - jacobolus 4y ago
        The other commenter was talking about a different bill. This one is from a GOP-controlled congress during the Bush administration, which would be even more absurd to blame on Bill Clinton! This 2005 bill would have passed with or without Biden. If you want someone to blame, this ~200 page bill was written by Chuck Grassley (R) and sponsored by 10 GOP senators and two Democratic senators (Biden is not on that list). The House version was written by Rep. Sensenbrenner (R) and sponsored by 80 GOP members and 8 Democratic members. Then it was signed by George W. Bush (R). This is exactly the kind of bill you can expect when the GOP gets unified control of the congress and presidency. https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/senate-bill/256 https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/senate-bill/256 It’s fair to criticize Biden for voting for this bill, especially in the context of the Democratic primary – Elizabeth Warren is much more aggressively pro-borrower, and in this case Biden was actually on the Judiciary Committee where this bill was debated so could have conceivably have spent his political capital making a big stink and trying (unsuccessfully) to sink it – but even then this article is pretty exaggerated / out of context: 2019 clickbait trying to attract views by speculatively scaremongering about intra-party differences.

woodruffw 4y ago

> From an individual perspective, people should not be willingly going into large debt for poor or relatively uncertain financial prospects. I don't disagree, but I want to highlight some factors that (IMO) at least partially absolve people who do take that route: * We do a really pitiful job of teaching financial literacy in the US, especially below the undergraduate level. I suspect that many people see 30K debt after college and think that they can subtract that directly from their salary over a course of years, without factoring in taxes, interest above the principal, etc. * At a societal level, we avoid crushing peoples' dreams: we all know that we can't each be this century's defining investigative journalist, art critic, &c., and yet we (socially) also understand that we can't get those successes unless lots of people strive towards those goals. Maybe this points to a fundamental error in how we value labor, but that's probably an even harder problem to solve for Americans than restructuring college tuition.

landemva 4y ago

College loans were dischargeable in bankruptcy until Clinton changed it. Biden can have that repealed, but that would upset the bankerster gravy train and could jeopardize political donations by the banksters. https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-budget/283625-how-the-clinton-administration-made-it-harder-on-student https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-budget/28362... Since politicians don't want to repeal the Clinton-era law, the logical choices for many students will be to skip college or to leave USA for college overseas. We are really harming our children with this debt.

mgamache 4y ago
Biden helped negotiate that bill.
- jacobolus 4y ago
  As far as I can tell this was a bill written and negotiated in the GOP-controlled House, by the Education and the Workforce committee. At the time Biden served in the (GOP-controlled) Senate, and not on the relevant committees there. Do you have evidence that Biden specifically was involved in negotiating about this? Or do you just mean that, insofar as he was a member of the Senate, he “helped” by voting for a ~250 page bill that passed 96–1? https://www.congress.gov/bill/105th-congress/house-bill/6 https://www.congress.gov/bill/105th-congress/house-bill/6
  - mgamache 4y ago
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/02/joe-biden-student-loan-debt-2005-act-2020 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/02/joe-biden-st... "it is indisputable that Biden was an avid supporter of the 2005 bill as a whole and of its overall thrust of tightening up the bankruptcy code largely to the benefit of lenders at the expense of distressed families who would find it harder to file for bankruptcy." "he used his leadership role to limit the ability of other Democrats who had concerns and who wanted the bill softened" "Senator Biden supports legislation that will fall hardest on women,” she wrote. “Why? The answer will have to come from him … He is a zealous advocate on behalf of one of his biggest contributors – the financial services industry.” -- E Warren in 2005
    - jacobolus 4y ago
      The other commenter was talking about a different bill. This one is from a GOP-controlled congress during the Bush administration, which would be even more absurd to blame on Bill Clinton! This 2005 bill would have passed with or without Biden. If you want someone to blame, this ~200 page bill was written by Chuck Grassley (R) and sponsored by 10 GOP senators and two Democratic senators (Biden is not on that list). The House version was written by Rep. Sensenbrenner (R) and sponsored by 80 GOP members and 8 Democratic members. Then it was signed by George W. Bush (R). This is exactly the kind of bill you can expect when the GOP gets unified control of the congress and presidency. https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/senate-bill/256 https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/senate-bill/256 It’s fair to criticize Biden for voting for this bill, especially in the context of the Democratic primary – Elizabeth Warren is much more aggressively pro-borrower, and in this case Biden was actually on the Judiciary Committee where this bill was debated so could have conceivably have spent his political capital making a big stink and trying (unsuccessfully) to sink it – but even then this article is pretty exaggerated / out of context: 2019 clickbait trying to attract views by speculatively scaremongering about intra-party differences.