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Funny. The first thing you have to learn when working at any company is to unlearn everything you were taught about writing in college. In terms of learning “c

Funny. The first thing you have to learn when working at any company is to unlearn everything you were taught about writing in college. In terms of learning “critical thinking”, it’s just selection bias. Most smart people go to college and people misattribute the intelligence as somehow being a product of the college. No, it’s not.

ModernMech 4y ago
There is a stark difference between the critical thinking abilities of my freshman and senior students. It seems to me we're doing something to them over their 4 years with us.
- TotoHorner 4y ago
  How do you even define “critical thinking”. Obviously students will learn how to game the system and pass all the essays/tests over their 4 years. That doesn’t imply that they’re more useful for society or better placed for their futures. It just means that they know what words/phrases to use to get an A on their paper.
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    If by "game the system" you mean, "learn the necessary knowledge and skills taught in the curriculum to graduate", then yeah, they are gaming the system. But to you point, I define critical thinking as the ability to analyze and synthesize disparate data in order to form thoughts and opinions which are well founded. When they come to me out of high school, this ability is often completely lacking. When they leave after 4 years, they are being sought after by top companies, forming their own companies, and entering into public service well equipped to meet the demands of their new careers. No one is graduating from our programs by regurgitating words/phrases. I don't know where you got that perception. That would be descriptive of high school, not a top-ranked university.
- _dain_ 4y ago
  mate, they just got older. there's a stark difference in critical thinking skill between 22 year olds and 18 year olds, regardless of what degree they get (or whether they get one at all).
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    So you’re telling me that 4 years of continuous and rigorous study on a skill has absolutely 0 effect on one’s abilities regarding that skill? They could have done nothing whatsoever wand would have gotten the same result? That’s quite a take if that’s what you’re saying, and also disproven by the fact that students absolutely differ in ability depending on how much they apply themselves (studying vs partying). Also disproven by the fact our non-traditional students also improve in their abilities in the same way the 18 year olds do, despite being much older. What you’re saying here essentially is that the entire institution of education, something developed societies universally recognized as a cornerstone of civilization, is entirely without merit. Maybe you should rethink that position?
jltsiren 4y ago
I would call it critical reading rather than critical thinking. Terms like critical thinking and intelligence are often too pretentious to be useful. Critical reading is a skill you can practice. The specifics depend on the field, but there are many common features such as analyzing and comparing texts, interpreting them from various points of view, and putting things in context. In order to practice critical reading, you must learn something deep enough that you start understanding the nuances of the arguments the experts in the field make. Fresh STEM graduates tend to have worse critical reading skills than arts/humanities graduates, because they never had the chance to practice it. On the other hand, advancing to true senior positions often requires similar skills, and many learn them later in the life.
- scarmig 4y ago
  Going by LSAT scores, which provide a measure of critical reading skills, I don't see a strong trend by major. Math majors score highest [0]. Of course, this is a self selected sample. I'd be curious to see evidence that STEM majors actually have worse critical reading skills. Or is it a subjective ranking you've derived? [0] https://magoosh.com/lsat/average-lsat-scores-by-major/ https://magoosh.com/lsat/average-lsat-scores-by-major/

ModernMech 4y ago

There is a stark difference between the critical thinking abilities of my freshman and senior students. It seems to me we're doing something to them over their 4 years with us.

TotoHorner 4y ago
How do you even define “critical thinking”. Obviously students will learn how to game the system and pass all the essays/tests over their 4 years. That doesn’t imply that they’re more useful for society or better placed for their futures. It just means that they know what words/phrases to use to get an A on their paper.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  If by "game the system" you mean, "learn the necessary knowledge and skills taught in the curriculum to graduate", then yeah, they are gaming the system. But to you point, I define critical thinking as the ability to analyze and synthesize disparate data in order to form thoughts and opinions which are well founded. When they come to me out of high school, this ability is often completely lacking. When they leave after 4 years, they are being sought after by top companies, forming their own companies, and entering into public service well equipped to meet the demands of their new careers. No one is graduating from our programs by regurgitating words/phrases. I don't know where you got that perception. That would be descriptive of high school, not a top-ranked university.
_dain_ 4y ago
mate, they just got older. there's a stark difference in critical thinking skill between 22 year olds and 18 year olds, regardless of what degree they get (or whether they get one at all).
- ModernMech 4y ago
  So you’re telling me that 4 years of continuous and rigorous study on a skill has absolutely 0 effect on one’s abilities regarding that skill? They could have done nothing whatsoever wand would have gotten the same result? That’s quite a take if that’s what you’re saying, and also disproven by the fact that students absolutely differ in ability depending on how much they apply themselves (studying vs partying). Also disproven by the fact our non-traditional students also improve in their abilities in the same way the 18 year olds do, despite being much older. What you’re saying here essentially is that the entire institution of education, something developed societies universally recognized as a cornerstone of civilization, is entirely without merit. Maybe you should rethink that position?

jltsiren 4y ago

I would call it critical reading rather than critical thinking. Terms like critical thinking and intelligence are often too pretentious to be useful. Critical reading is a skill you can practice. The specifics depend on the field, but there are many common features such as analyzing and comparing texts, interpreting them from various points of view, and putting things in context. In order to practice critical reading, you must learn something deep enough that you start understanding the nuances of the arguments the experts in the field make. Fresh STEM graduates tend to have worse critical reading skills than arts/humanities graduates, because they never had the chance to practice it. On the other hand, advancing to true senior positions often requires similar skills, and many learn them later in the life.

scarmig 4y ago
Going by LSAT scores, which provide a measure of critical reading skills, I don't see a strong trend by major. Math majors score highest [0]. Of course, this is a self selected sample. I'd be curious to see evidence that STEM majors actually have worse critical reading skills. Or is it a subjective ranking you've derived? [0] https://magoosh.com/lsat/average-lsat-scores-by-major/ https://magoosh.com/lsat/average-lsat-scores-by-major/